Secularism

From Tynia Shanchell on Mar 27th:

This is so true (secularism) and society works hard at keeping this world convinced that this is the way it should be. Why?! The way of the Lord is better than the way of man, what are we afraid of? Doing theright things, living the right way?! My decree is from the book of Joshua 24:14-15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD. RFTH thank you for allowing me to express myself on you website, I hope others who read this have this attitude. Thanks again and keep up the Lord's work. God bless.

From Austin on Mar 27th:

Tynia - I completely agree with you and this devotional. So many people live as Secularists. Unfortunately, years down the road they end up with broken hearts and broken homes - and are left wondering, "what happened to my life?" It is heart-wrenching to see. I trust that God can use those times in peoples lives to show them His open arms and infinite love.

From Erik on Mar 27th:

Where is the evidence that secularism leads to disillusionment and hopelessness? The secular countries and people of the world are generally happier and healthier than their religious counterparts. Every study has shown this.

From Bryan on Mar 27th:

Erik, stop making things up, no study has shown this either way. Even if they did I'd be quite skeptical of any quantitative measurement of "happiness" being reliable, it is by definition in the eye of the beholder.
Now with respect to the devotional...I find that can't wholeheartedly agree with its message. Without turning this in to an argument over the separation of church and state (or any of the other umbrella arguments attached therein), I'd have to say that God should guide one's personal actions, and that institutionalizing it in civil affairs/public education only breeds dissension (i.e. the protestant reformation).

From Keith R. on Mar 27th:

Where is the evidence that the people of the world are generally happier and healthier than their religious counterparts? Before they took prayer out of school, how many students were gunned down in cold blood a year? How many Christians commit suicide compared to people of the world?
How many people of the world who are alcoholics and drug addicts turn to Christ for freedom compared to Christians who turn to alcohol and drugs?
Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

Lev 26:14-17 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,
and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
These people do not sound like they will be happy or healthy.

From Sharon on Mar 27th:

I agree with Tynia, Austin, Keith, and Bryan. The only thing that I'd like to add is that we were all created in God's image, and as such, we have a need for Him, whether we realize it or not. People try in vain to fill this void with other things. What having Jesus really gives is not "happiness" so to speak, but JOY! They are not the same thing. The "joy" that God promises is equated with "peace" and comes from the hope that we have in Christ. I just know that I can't live any other way than "Christ in Me".

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

Sweden ranks aside with France and Russia on having a large minority of its citizens who have no religion. Independent of these statistics, it is generally known that Swedish society, collectively, is one of the safest, most productive societies, and completely non-religious.

Freedom of religion is a constitutional right. Christians, feel free to be Christians. Atheists, feel free to be atheists. Church and state MUST be kept separate.

From FCE on Mar 27th:

Sharon nailed it. Happiness and Joy are not the same. Happiness comes from external circumstances and is temporary. As our circumstances change so can our happiness. Joy comes from what's inside of us, what's in our heart. It's something that can't be taken away just because the external circumstances change. Christ in our hearts IS our joy.

From Janice on Mar 27th:

Yes, Sharon and FCE, you are completely right about joy and happiness. I have known joy even during sorrow because of Who is with me but happiness is never found to be a friend at sorrowful times. I have a beautiful card posted by my door that quotes part of Nehemiah 8:10, "The joy of the Lord is your strength." It is true.

From Rick Y on Mar 27th:

Faith and hope are largely a personal thing, and how someone deals with adversity is also telling. It is much easier to be hopeful when things are going well. There was a touching story this morning on "Today" about two families whose daughters were in an accident. One was killed and one was in a coma. Five weeks later the families realized that the girls were misidentified. There is a two hour special on "Dateline" tomorrow night starting at 9:00 PM that would be worth watching. I think it shows clearly how their strong faith in God helped provide them peace and hope during that time.

As far as at a country level, while the US can rightfully claim to have a Christian heritage, it is all but a secular nation now. As that has changed over time, I think we have definitely seen a coarsening of our culture, more crime and violence, and a reduction in the overall hope of many. We can certainly draw conclusions about nations that were founded on and promote atheism, as well theocracies founded on Islam. I am glad I live in a country where I can worship freely and speak my mind.

From Erik on Mar 27th:

Keith R.:
Violence in schools is down.

http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html

The Barna study (an evangelical group) found no difference between Christian vs. Atheists in the area of drug addiction/alcohol. Although they did find that Christians are more
likely to get divorced.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=272

From FCE on Mar 27th:

Erik, thanks. I also found this on the Barna site: "A new evangelistic movement has emerged in America. Yet this effort does not spring from those loyal to a particular faith or religious view.
The new evangelists are atheists. People who have determined there is no God or who doubt his existence (a group commonly known as agnostics) are adopting a more aggressive, intentional effort to discredit the notion that God exists and to critique people of faith. Widely reviewed new books such as The God Delusion and God is Not Great represent this movement. "

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

FCE. Athesits are NOT evangelicals. We are not fanatics. And here's why.

Our argument goes something like this: If you claim that something is true, I will examine the evidence which supports your claim; if you have no evidence, I will not accept that what you say is true and I will think you a foolish and gullible person for believing it so.

That's it. That's the whole, crazy, fanatical "evangelical" package.

When a priest says a few words, and some hand-waving causes a cracker to transform into the flesh of a 2,000-year-old man, Dawkins and his fellow atheits say, well, prove it. It should be simple. Swab the Host and do a DNA analysis. If you don't, we will give your claim no more respect than we give to those who say they see the future in crystal balls or bend spoons with their minds or become werewolves at each full moon.

And for this, it is Dawkins, not the religious person or priest, who is labelled the unreasonable fanatic on par with faith-saturated madmen who sacrifice children to an invisible spirit.

This is completely contrary to how we live the rest of our lives. We demand proof of even trivial claims ("John was the main creative force behind Sergeant Pepper") and we dismiss those who make such claims without proof. We are still more demanding when claims are made on matters that are at least temporarily important ("Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction" being a notorious example).

So isn't it odd that when claims are made about matters as important as the nature of existence and our place in it, we suddenly drop all expectation of proof and we respect those who make and believe claims without the slightest bit of evidence? Why is it perfectly reasonable to roll my eyes when someone makes the bald assertion that Ringo was the greatest Beatle but it is "fundamentalist" and "fanatical" to say that, absent evidence, it is absurd to believe Muhammad was not lying or hallucinating when he claimed to have long chats with God? Or Jesus was born to a virgin? Or God exists in general without any proof?

From FCE on Mar 27th:

Olberman ... might you just be Jonathan in disguise? You sound a lot like him.

From Adam on Mar 27th:

If everything in the bible had some sort of physical proof or evidence, then there would be no reason for faith, and almost everyone in the world would be Christian. I can't speak for other religions, but I assume it's the same scenario.

FAITH in God is what it's all about....either you have it or you don't. I wouldn't try to justify everything said in the bible with tangible proof, because although I believe there that God provides proof for a lot of things, you still have to have faith with others things.

I've never heard of anybody asking for the PROOF that a pilot knows how to fly a plane, before getting on a flight. So I guess they have faith that the pilot knows what he/she is doing. Even if one DID request this proof, a piece of paper doesn't really prove much since it can be altered or faked, like many claim the bible to be.

No none of us were there to see Jesus' ressurection with our own eyes....and most of us weren't there to see our airline pilot take flying lessons and pass the test.

So why even bother trying to prove everything? Have faith, and God will judge in the end...nobody else.

From Austin on Mar 27th:

FCE - I think you are right about the Olberman observation...his analysis of taking communion betrays quite a lack of knowledge of Biblical Christianity (as opposed to Catholic dogma). Sounds like a Jonathan...

From Jerry on Mar 27th:

Olberman, I am not sure if you have noticed but this is not a catholic site, this is the Johnson Ferry Baptist Church site or a representation of it. I also pastor a Babtist Church and we do not wave our hands and say that a cracker (we used unleavened bread) becomes the body of Christ. We simply say that it is what we use to represent the body of Christ and the grape juice just represente the blood of Christ. We use the Holy Bible for our Canon or measuring devise to see how we measure up to what we perceive God expects out of us. It is thru faith in Jesus Christ that we believe we have eternal life.

From Austin on Mar 27th:

Olberman, proof was provided in the way of miracles and prophesies. Those are documented in the Bible. You just weren't alive yet to witness them yourself. Try reading The Case for Faith. It may help you to understand why we believe the Bible is telling us the truth - if you are interested.

From Barbie on Mar 27th:

Jerry, although I am a strong advocate of just about everything you say, and love reading your posts, I believe you are wrong about the site being a part of Johnson Ferry Baptist Church. I believe it is a non-denominational ministry. I'm sure they can tell you, but I wanted to clear that up.

From Austin on Mar 27th:

Also Olberman, I've read Dawkin's The God Delusion. It is a really weak book that has a childish and whiny tone. My opinion is shared by most well educated Atheists. I believe it was Sam Harris, or maybe Christopher Hitchens, who said that the book was a terrible representation of Atheisim and he wished it had never been written.

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

I doubt it was Christopher Hitchens who said it, Hitchens and Dawkins are buds and agree on most things. Although Hitchens disagrees with Dawkins' "The Brights" campaign, as do I. Atheism is not a religion, and perhaps should not even be a word.

Maybe Sam Harris said it re: Dawkins, although I don't agree. I thought The God Delusion was well written and summarized the atheist's argument well. Although I disagreed on one minor point at the end (regarding a statue moving its arm - read that, it's not the most informed view of structural chemistry I've heard).

Jerry/Austin - my Holy Communion example was just that, an example. I'm aware that the Roman Catholics have transubstantiation and believe that bread/wine BECOMES Christ, and the other Christian denominations regard it as a symbol of Christ (a much more sane view in my mind). But surely, God is God and Christ is Christ, correct? Are you saying as Baptists, you are more knowledgeable about superstitious and illogical things than say, Roman Catholics?

Holy Communion is a replay of the Last Supper and thus, a 'ceremony' that is meant to show faith in Jesus - what am I not getting?

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

Thanks for deleting my multiple posts. That was not intended.

Austin, why do I need to read "The Case for Faith"? I don't need to read "The Case for Santa Claus" to know that he does not exist, do I?

From Erik on Mar 27th:

I've read all of Strobel's books. He is a joke. Very dishonest.

Programming note: there will be a debate tonight on http://www.infidelguy.com at 8pm EST on the historical evidence for Jesus Christ. Christian author David Marshall vs. New Testament scholar Bob "The Bible Geek" Price. Check it out and bring a friend. I'll be there.

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

Thanks Erik, I'll check it out if I have the time.

From Erik on Mar 27th:

Great, Olberman. I'll look for you.
Everyone else is welcome too. Come, let us reason together.

From Jerry on Mar 27th:

Olberman, No I am not saying that we are more correct than anyone else. Yes transubstantiation is an act that the catholics does when they tell the people that the crackers and the wine actually becomes the body and blood of Christ. What I was saying was simply that we use the bread and juice symbolicaly to represent the body and blood of Christ.

From Jerry on Mar 27th:

Not to take away anything from the devotion but what I got from reading the 7-9 verse is this. No one can give the necessary price to redeem himself or anybody else grom the grave. Face everyone is going to die, unless they are taken in the rapture. I know that the word rapture is not mentioned in the bible but this event will take place in the air when the Lord comes for his children prior to the tribulation. But to get back to the scripture, the bible is not opposed to ones wealth but with reguard to one destiny, wealth is worthless beyond the grave. It is a fact you cant take it with you. In short man cannot purchase additional days to extend his life.

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

Sorry Erik, I couldn't make it. But I listened to it afterwards. Very interesting indeed, but not surprising. i.e. bible manipulation throughout the ages.

From Christ Follower on Mar 27th:

I find it really sad how obviously joyless and angry some people on this forum are. I didn't name any names because you know whether or you're truly a happy person inside. The "proof" is in your attitude.

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

I'm very happy. And in the theme of today's devotion, I'm very very happy that secularism is on the rise. Every single year, more people (in the US) claim to be no affiliated with any religion.

You don't have to be a genious to plot time on one axis, and % secular on the other, and do a little extrapolation, to see what's going to happen.

The reason this is happening? There is too much information today. People are too educated, and there is an ease at which we can access information. Like tonight, I can listen to someone's research, with EVIDENCE backing it up, that Nazarath was essentially made up by the Christians.

This is why secularism is on the rise.

From Susan on Mar 27th:

Wow...today's posts are full of rabbit holes !!!!!

From Christ Follower on Mar 27th:

Why Olberman would you think I was speaking about you being angry and joyless?

From Olberman on Mar 27th:

I thought you were referring to all our resident atheists.

From Christ Follower on Mar 27th:

You notice I did not mention happy. I don't doubt their is a certain amount of happiness that some people receive from being condescending to others or they wouldn't do it. Only they know their true motives. Only they know whether it is anger or joy in their hearts.

From Gracie Benz on Mar 27th:

I take heart in this, scripture, amidst all the disrespect and denial of my Lord.

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

From Rick Y on Mar 27th:

Too true, Susan. Another busy day on RFTH. So Nazareth was made up, Olberman? I could see that. With all the historical and geographical accuracy of the bible in other areas, it would make perfect sense for the writers to make up a place called Nazareth just for grins. They were trying to sneak one past us, I guess.

And, there is no proof that there is a God? Hey, you're right. But, then again, there is no proof that there is *not* a God, either. So where does leave us? Where does the evidence point? Well, all evidence indicates that the universe and time itself began some 13 billion years ago. And, the evidence seems to indicate that the physical laws that permit life in the universe are finely tuned to an incredible level that could not be explained by chance. But, we certainly can't postulate that it was God. No, that would be inserting God where we cannot explain something.

Instead of God, maybe I should insert an infinite number of universes. That would explain the apparent fine-tuning, and why we are having this discussion in this incredibly rare, life-permitting universe that we are lucky enough to live in. No, wait. That doesn't explain the beginning of the universe. So, it must have just popped into existence without a cause, out of nothing. No, pretty much everyone is in agreement that's not really possible. Perhaps I can insert the idea of a massive, mindless universe-creating energy bubble in another dimension that caused our universe. Yeah... that's the ticket. But wait, that still leaves the problem of the initial cause. What caused that process to begin? Hey.... maybe it always existed.

But then again, maybe it was a creator who always existed. It seems to me that it is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the evidence that time, space and matter had a beginning in the finite past. And if that is the case, then it's not to hard to believe in a miracle like the resurrection or the virgin birth. William Lane Craig said the virgin birth was a stumbling block for him prior to becoming a Christian. He could not get past the fact that Mary did not have the ability to produce a male child without a human father. He later realized that if God could create the universe, creating a Y chromosome was trivial.

From becky on Mar 27th:

Thanks Gracie, you're right. Everything in God's word comes to pass and unfortunately those words couldn't be truer than what's happening in the world right now.

From AUstin on Mar 28th:

Olberman, check out the history of societies that have rejected God. The wholesale massacre of millions of innocent people seems to be the reoccuring theme. One problem with Atheism is that their is no basis for objective morality. By objective morality I mean an action that is wrong, regardless of whether anyone thinks it is wrong or not. All the famous Atheists have attemped to explain morality, but have failed miserably (most resorted to inventing some kind of "ism"). Some of the most famous (and intellectualy honest) Atheist philosophers (Nitzche, Sarte)delt with this problem by denying morality exists at all. That there is no good or bad, wrong or right. While that is an honest and logical outworking of the denial of God, I find that position does not conform to reality. I think we would all agree that it is objectively wrong to murder innocent children, or burn innocent people at a witch trial, or to enslave people, etc. The issue of morality is one that Atheists have not been able to address.
Also, Atheism is a faith. There is zero proof that there is no God. You put your faith in your belief that you are correct. Just watch - Atheisism, in 10-30 yrs, will have rules and structure similar to most churches. That is, if you can find enough people to believe that kind of nonsense.

From Jerry on Mar 28th:

Gracie, I was going to post that same scripture to show God knew people was going to become just as they are today but you beat me to it. Truly the bible is the only book in existence the has predicted itself and we have the proof that it came to pass just as the bible said it would. Today people are trusting in themselves for all their needs more than they ever have in history. Call me stupid or misimformed but I will stick with my God and the Holy Bible, I have had too many experiences to happen in my life to deny his presence. God bless all. Now I am praying for Erik, Jonathon and now Olberman that they will open their hearts to the word of God before it is too late and I ask all the believers to join me in this endevour.