The Privilege to Reject

From JCO on Apr 30th:

Nobody knows for certain what Christ said. (Granted, nobody knows for certain that Christ even existed). If he existed, I doubt he even talked about Hell. It could have been a later addition to scare people into joining Christianity. All of this heaven/hell stuff was invented to level the playing fileld i.e. there is so much injustice down here - the wicked prosper, the good suffer - thus there must be someplace to remedy that, and that's heaven/hell. Nice invention, but again, doubt it's true.

I think the hell-fire punishment for sin is a doctrine of cruelty. Moreover, it's childish. It's like telling your kid "Do your homework, or I'll beat you" vs. "Do your homework because you'll be smarter, get better grades, and that will help you out later in life", etc.

From Lisa on Apr 30th:

In response to the previous comment, the Bible is God's Word and it contains God's promises to us. Jesus was sent here to save us from sin and to give us a chance for eternity in heaven. This is the simple truth. I pray that you listen to what God is telling you. Apparently, you may be struggling with this within yourself. If you doubt the Word, then look to the history of the Dead Sea Scrolls and you will see that His message hasn't changed for thousands of years. I will pray for you today. L

From Austin on Apr 30th:

JCO - do you really think your "homework" analogy is acurate? Did you read the devotion seeking to understand or to critise, because your analogy ignores the major premise of the devotion.

Onward - I understand that a loving God must give people the option of rejecting Him. This rejection means that people are going to spend their eternity in a place that is devoid of God. I've tried to imagine that place, but I don't know that I am capable. What I don't understand is the fire. Why is there fire? Where does it come from? What is it's purpose?

From Regina on Apr 30th:

You don't have to understand everything to believe something. Most Christians believe and love God because of the wonderful relationship they have with Him and how much better their lives are as a result of that relationship--- not because they are afraid of going to hell.

From Chylene on Apr 30th:

I believe in hell, consequences, and rejection. We are such a spoiled rotten nation that we want to do whatever we feel and not have negative consequences. How childish?
Choose God and choose heaven. Reject God and reject heaven. So simple, so why all the discussion.
Our current economy is because people chose a financial situation that they knew they could not honor God. Now we are in a economic "hell".

From Stephen on Apr 30th:

All the discussion is about learning the word of God and I love this forum because there are no restrictions as far as Faith or Dogma. It's always good to hear opposing views or what or how the enemy acutally thinks!
Austin you can find several references to "Fire" in the book of Revelations. I will leave you a couple..
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Be Blessed!

From Grant on Apr 30th:

I am no "student of Russell". Did he actually assume to judge the moral character of Jesus?

As for heaven and hell, to paraphrase one theologian: "Choose God or Reject God, He will honor your choice. The exact nature of the consequences of that choice, heaven or hell, will be known soon enough."

From Christ follower on Apr 30th:

JCO, just like you say we can't prove God,Christ, or even hell exists- can you PROVE that they don't? As far as I'm concerned there is much more evidence they do which is a problem for you. Still praying for you. God bless

From Erik on Apr 30th:

I wouldn't wish eternal torture on anyone. I guess I am just not as loving as God.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

First of all, I am NOT anyone's "enemy" here. I'm not some crazy Muslim looking to blow myself up in one of your public markets, nor am I some looking to see you suffer for your silly and highly erroneous beliefs. I am a human being and a citizen of the Western World, just like you are.

I think my analogy is just fine. What I was saying was a good parent tells their children why it is important to do the right thing. A good parent instructs one’s child in the benefits of charitable behaviour towards others. A bad parent says "do this, or I'll spank you.” And the latter is what we have with the Bible - do this or do that, or you'll go to hell and suffer (the spanking). The Bible is, in my mind, juvenile in its approach to human moral guidance.

You’re right CF - I can not disprove God, but I can, with confidence, rule it out, just as I can rule out, with a high degree of certainty, fairies at the bottom of the sea.

To Erik's comment. 100% agree. I love my child, and I could never imagine EVER wishing enternal torture on him (hell), regardless of what he does. That's real love. I expect the same from your god.

The Bible is the word of people, not god.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

Grant, yes in Bertrand Russell's brilliant book, "Why I am Not a Christian" (which I consider the original "God Delusion"), he discusses at length the moral character of Jesus. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It's a good read, you should pick up a a copy ;)

From RickY on Apr 30th:

I've heard this argument stated as "God would not force anyone to spend eternity with Him if that is not their choice in this life, because for them, that would be worse than hell". I don't buy that. I think those in hell would readily choose heaven if they could, and that is certainly supported in scripture. I do agree, though, that hell is about justice and ratifying a person's choice about God in this life. We all have the ability to choose whether we will accept the light that God brings into our life, or reject it. I think that is a free choice, and that freedom is how we can truly have love. I cannot force my kids to love me, nor would I want to. I'm not even sure God could force us to "love" him, just as he cannot make a square circle. It would make the idea of love meaningless and just as much a self-contradiction.

Jonathan, you are obviously not a parent.

From Christ Follower on Apr 30th:

You are free to make the choice. No one is making you, by the way. Just because we don't particularly like the idea of something does not make it not true, sorry. Again, you say we cannot prove it is true. Well,then PROVE that it is NOT and again you have a problem if it is. Enough said from me, this site is not here to argue. God bless & still praying for you and believe it or not I have no reason to believe my prayers won't be answered. You may argue, you may try to unsucessfully change our minds, but guess what you're still here. Something will not let you stay away & I have the feeling that you've probably tried. In order to truly know one way or the other you are going to have to for once in your life do something by SINCERE faith and THEN see the results or are you afraid of what might happen? Again enough said-God bless

From Janice on Apr 30th:

Jonathan, I beg to differ but God does act as the good parent and the positive parent and tells us so many good results in His word, the Bible, about why it will go well for us if we choose to do things His way. He also warns us of hell which is the final eternal result if we choose to separate from Him and go our own destructive way. Once again it appears you only have read the Bible or listened to what others have to say about it with a negative intent with finding something wrong with God. Slightly changing the subject but recently I was reading in the Bible about David and Jonathan. Jonathan is a really good guy who was a loyal friend in time of trouble. You may want to read about him sometime. Talk about a bad dad, Jonathan certainly knew what that was! Read the Bible and find God's goodness there. Blessings to you.

From Christ Follower on Apr 30th:

By the way Jonathan I do know that You are a parent and I do believe that you do love them very much. Just mentioning that because someone stated that you weren't a parent and I know that you are.I know that God cares about you as well. I know that because I feel that He has prompted me to keep praying for You, but again He will not force You to do anything. It is totally Your choice. We can only pray that the truth is revealed to you, the rest is up to you. God bless and Iam done now. I just had to clear up the not being a parent thing. I don't doubt for a minute that you love your child deeply. God bless

From Austin on Apr 30th:

JCO – what is this “I’m nobody’s enemy” talk? No one even implied that you are anyone’s enemy, in fact many people have stated that they will pray for you – that’s a wonderful thing. No need to play the victim.

Your statement “the Bible is the word of people, not God.” That is a statement based on faith.

Your homework analogy reveals that you do not understand the basics of the Christian faith. God doesn’t tell humanity to do as He says or suffer XYZ in the way a parent tells a child to do their homework or I’ll spank you. Instead he tells us what is harmful (sin) and informs us that it will lead to misery in our lives. He loves us, He doesn’t want us to suffer the natural consequences of sin, so he clearly identifies things we should avoid. I sin every single day. God has never “spanked” me, and I have His word that He never will. I won’t get spanked because Jesus took my “spanking” for me. All I had to do was accept his gift. In gratitude, and with God’s help, I do my best not to sin.

Another CS Lewis quote:
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'”

People don’t go to hell for not doing what God says. People go to hell because they choose hell, they prefer not to worship God or be in communion with Him. They choose to reject Jesus’ gift. God merely grants them their wish out of love. These ideas of “sending” and “wishing eternal torture” are nonsense. You are free to escape hell if you choose.

If you’d like to discuss the moral character of Jesus, please start by naming one thing He did morally wrong.

As far as your comment “The Bible is, in my mind, juvenile in its approach to human moral guidance.” You do understand that without a God, morality doesn’t exist – right? Without God there is no objective standard of wrong or right. This is widely accepted in many atheistic circles. Atheist writers, philosophers, etc have examined the issue at length and most have rejected the idea of objective morals. So when you say “good” parents and “bad” parents, those words mean nothing without God. To you they have meaning, but what is your fixed reference point for deciding between good or bad?

From Grant on Apr 30th:

Austin. Very well said.

JCO. I really don't need to read anymore book arguing against Christianity specifically, or God generally. My mind and heart have been settled on that issue for quite awhile now. You would not believe how peaceful and powerful that is. As Christians, we only wish the same joy for everyone. It's available. It's free. It's real.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

CF - thanks. You are a gentleman and a scholar, but I think FEMALE right?!

Sounds like a drug Grant, not reality.

There are too many falsities here now to comment, so I’ll focus on the most egregious. That one is, without God, morality doesn’t exist. Without God, there is no objective standard of right or wrong. This is completely false and NOT widely accepted in atheistic circles. First of all, Austin states there are no good/bad parents without God. Why do we need ‘your’ god for this? Why not say there are no good/bad parents without Zeus? Or without Thor? It is obviously my view that the Bible was written by humans, and any morality in there, WE PUT THERE. Humans wrote it in there because the authors knew right/from wrong. Today, we look at the Bible and pick out the things we know are good “no killing” and choose to reject (or come up with a ridiculous explanation for) things we know are bad “stoning someone for working on Sunday” or mass genocide, as just two examples.

Moreover, you all agree God is good right? How do you judge that? If God creates the good/bad rules, and then you use those same rules to judge him/her/it, then you get an infinite loop problem because you’ve used god’s fiat to turn that judgement back on him. I can’t think “all chickens are bad” and then have a chicken think I’m bad because I made up the good/bad rules in the first place! Thus if God created good/bad rules, then you can’t call God good. But you all do, and hence the paradox. But since you DO think “God is good”, good/bad and hence morality must exist outside of God’s existence and we don’t need God to decide what is good and what is bad.

Also, there was a study completed at Harvard back a number of years ago that found zero difference between the morality of the religious person and the morality of the non-believer. Then where do we atheists get our morals? Same place you do.

Again, and I’ve said this before and never had a satisfactory answer, say aliens showed up with the answers of the universe and told us all that our god’s were false, would you still know that raping and murdering are wrong? Sure you would. How do you know that without a God? Ask yourself these questions.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

God's an atheist right? I assume that He doesn't believe in a higher power. Where does he get his knowledge of good and evil to guide him? He gets it from common sense and empathy towards others. You see, empathy and compassion are essential to a functioning society, and we've evolved so that empathy/compassion are hard-wired into our brains. Natural selection has produced "moral" humans over time, and moral cats, dogs, etc. that have NO knowledge of any god....

I could go on all days, but that's all I have to say on this topic.

From RickY on Apr 30th:

Jonathan, if you are a parent, I apologize for saying you're obviously not one. My reason for saying that is a good parent knows that they must set boundaries for their children, must let them know the consequences if they cross those boundaries, and carry out punishment if they do so. There is nothing wrong with providing positive reinforcement for good behavior, but If you parent with an attitude of not punishing when a child does something wrong, the child will almost certainly have serious problems.

Also, both you and Erik characterized God as "wishing" eternal torture on people. God does not want anyone to choose hell, just like I do not want bad things for my children. But, I still made the decision to have kids, even though I know that they are going to fall down and get hurt, at points in their life they will have terrible pain, and they will die some day. If I did not have kids, I would be missing out one of the most special relationships I and they can have. I also give them freedom as they get older to make their own decisions and possibly screw up their lives. I hope they will make the right choices. All I can do is lay a good foundation for them based on moral values. If one of them chooses one day to rob a bank, I will be greatly saddened, just as God is when we sin. I also know they will have to pay for any crimes the commit. Just because there is a punishment for sin, does not mean I do not love them, and I certainly would wish that upon them. to

From RickY on Apr 30th:

Morality comes from God because that is his nature. He is the essence of good. It is not something outside of himself.

Natural selection is all about survival of the fittest. There is no reason that morality would develop. In a naturalistic world view, we are only animals -- no different than cats and dogs. No reason to be kind to others. No reason not to kill others and take what we want. No reason not to rape, or kill babies that might grow up and threaten our power some day.

It's not societal, either. Under your view, it wouldn't matter if a dictator decides that he is going to kill everyone with blue eyes. Even if the majority is blue-eyed, the dictator has the power and could do what he wants without it being wrong. Without an objective morality that comes from a moral law giver, we can all pretty much do whatever we want if we have the power. In contrast, even if Hitler had won the war, and we were all under Nazi Germany's power today, what he did to the Jews would still be wrong. In face, even if we were brainwashed into thinking it was the right thing to do, it would still be wrong. That's the difference between objective morality, which must have a source that it is grounded in, versus moral relativism.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

Are you all telling me that you would normally all set out tonight butchering, raping, and thieving, taking as you please, but you are all stopped dead in your tracks only because you are afraid of a divine punishment? I think idea is actually insulting to your own selves. I know you are all better people than that, and I also know that you would all know these things are completely wrong without God’s guidance on these matters.

I don't believe the story of Moses, or in any of the other stories of the Old Testament, but are you also telling me that the Jews made the long trek to Mount Sinai thinking that stealing and murder were perfectly fine, to only be told by God once there that "bad news folks", these things are not kosher after all?

I don't find any of these positions reasonable in the slightest.

Now, not all monotheisms are the same. They all suffer from the same delusion and all have plagiarised one another, but there is one particular monotheism that is now proposing serious threats to freedoms everywhere. And you all know which one that I’m talking about (not your particular brand of monotheism) and I don’t find that particular flavour of religion to be moral in the slightest. In their minds, you and I are all going to someplace not fun. I don’t believe God ever spoke to Mohammad through the angel Gabriel. Do you folks?

From JCO on Apr 30th:

Ricky, surely you would not like to see your child in Hell. Ever. Even if your child were to rob a bank, you would not want him to go there. Understandable. If God's love is infinite (and thus more than yours), shouldn't your child be saved by that very same love?

Again, you can't call God "good" if he made up the rules. Think.

I agree, the killing of the Jews was horribly wrong. So was what happened under Stalin, in Armenia, Rwanda, and Bosnia. How do I know that's wrong as an atheist?

We are hard-wired for empathy becasuse it has survival advantage. It is more productive to get along vs. fighting one another. If we get along, we have a higher chance of having children and passing on those empathy genes...

This devotion was all about rejection of the offer that Christianity has to give, and the rejection of that offer. What if I reject this offer that took place through the torture of another human being, that I didn't want, or would have tried to stop had I have been there? There is nothing voluntary about this offer.

I don't reject the Christian God in particular, I reject all religions on the same basis that I reject Christianity. I know they aren't true, reasonable, remotely believable, and I don't think they guide you morally.

From Janice on Apr 30th:

JCO, my inborn sense of what is right and wrong comes from the fact that I am made in the image of God. But just knowing the difference between right and wrong doesn't mean I always make the choice to do the right thing. When we read God's word it encourages us to do the right thing. I can not imagine the life you suggest without God's very words to us to help guide us to the best way to live. You see the words in the Bible as only the words of men and women because you are so stuck in the physical world that you are blind to the spiritual world. You are missing so much. If only you could understand...it's like you are stuck in the birth canal of being born again. Sometimes it takes a long time and a lot of experience to see the light. It takes a work of God to bring about a live birth. We pray for an excellent outcome.

From RickY on Apr 30th:

That's my point, Jonathan. Yes, we are hard-wired for empathy and know what we should do, but it has nothing to do with Darwinian Evolution. The mechanism of natural selection cannot account for it even it I granted that natural selection was how we got here.

The objective moral code, that we all recognize, existed before Moses received the Ten Commandments. Murder was just as wrong before that. Because morality is grounded in God's goodness, and we are all made in God's image, it applies to all people, including atheists. Atheists can know it just as a theist. That is why you are able to know what is wrong and right. We're are all subject to God's moral law just like we are all subject to gravity. We can choose to ignore gravity and jump off a building, just like we can choose to ignore God, but it's not a good idea in either case.

From Christ Follower on Apr 30th:

JCO-thanks yept female. I'm not wanting to get into an argument, but I did just want to add though, that yes before I became a christian that I difinitely knew the difference between right and wrong. I think generally most people do, although some don't seem to, but I guess that's another topic for another time. Anyway the bible says somewhere that as christians that we now have power over sin. That doesn't mean that we don't still sin, but basically in my case even though I always knew the difference between right and wrong and actually always wanted to do the right thing, I just often didn't seem to have the ability to not do things that I knew were wrong. Even though I still sin (though rarely) and yes that was a joke, I seem to have more choice and power over it, if that makes sense. In other words I just couldn't help myself before, but now I can. I know a lot of christians do seem to still have a lot of problems resisting sin or even addictions, but it's been my observation that when they truly ask for help from the Lord and REALLY mean it that they are immediately released from satan's pull in that particular area. I know you think it's a bunch of malarky anyway that has just been my experience that I have been set free from any sin that I ask to be set free from and usually without even having to ask. I just don't have the desire to do such things anymore and it is a very freeing feeling. Well probably doesn't make a bit of sense to you, but that's just been my experience and I must say it's wonderful and I think that is where the peace that passes all understanding comes in. You know that You've been forgiven and if you ask you can be released from the power of sin in whatever the situation you are being tempted. So no matter what circumstances that have surrounded me since my acceptance of Christ I've had a peace and joy despite even unhappy situations going on around me. Anyway I hope that someday you'll find that peace. Take care-God bless

From Erik on Apr 30th:

It's funny because I used to believe what folks like RickY and Christ Follower and the rest believe. I used to say think the same way. It's not a logical decision, it's an emotional one. There is also a lot of fear and sadness in it.

From JCO on Apr 30th:

Just in the news today:

If religion guides people to be moral, how do you explain things like this??

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html

From Christ Follower on Apr 30th:

I just got through writing how much happier, less fearful, more joyful, and free that I am than before I became a christian. No fear or sadness in our house anymore. Yohoo! Sorry Erik, for some reason you sound like the parable in Matt. 13: 3-9  "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up the plants were scorched and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. He who has ears, let him hear."  Not meaning to be insulting, but it sounds like your seed may have fallen on rocky ground. The sun or problems of the world came out and you withered away. Anyone that decides to become a true Christ believer has to make a true commitment no matter what difficulties they might face or persecution. It is obvious from this parable that Christ warned that some do not make a real commitment to Him to begin with. Matt. 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear." Hopefully eventually your mind & heart will be opened to the true lifelong commitment to Christ & not fall into the categories that this parable describes. I am still praying for you and Jonathan every night. God bless

From Christ Follower on Apr 30th:

JCO I've mentioned before that I don't really categorize myself as specifically religious. As my name reflects I am a Christ Follower and He was a perfect example of one that was outraged by the "religious" of that time period like the pharisees who had empty religious rituals and laws & no true spirtual connection with God. After all it was the "religious" pharisees that were ultimately responsible because of their jealousy of having him arrested & crucified. So there would be no one more upset or disgusted by atrocities committed by the so called "religious" than Christ himself. I'll leave it at that. God bless

From RickY on Apr 30th:

That's not relevant, Jonathan. How Christians act or what they believe has no bearing on the question of whether morals are objective or not.

As far as why that may be, in this case, I suspect it is because many with religious views tend to be more conservative, and those who are not religious tend to be more liberal. Those who are liberal will often appease evil or worry more about the rights of the criminal than the victim of crime--until they are the victim, that is. That is when reality hits home. I suspect if you asked the same question on September 12th, 2001, you'd have a lot more liberal, non-religious people agreeing that torture of those who were involved in the events of the previous day would be acceptable if it would prevent further terrorist attacks.

From Gail on Apr 30th:

Erik, I used to believe the way you do now and there was great fear of death, loneliness in a crowd, and sadness from misdirection and yearning for completion that only comes in a relationship with Jesus Christ. Now I have the Holy Spirit and my fear of dying is gone replaced by a peace that passes all understanding and a joy of belonging to the Body of Christ which is more of a family than my biological family and living inside, and the knowledge that I will NEVER be alone again even if I was the last person on earth. I don't know what your experience was with God and His Word, but I do know this. If you truly believed than you are His and just being deceived now. Or you,Erik went out from us because you were never of us; for if you had been of us, Erik you would no doubt have continued with us... 1 John 2:19 personalized for you Erik. My prayer is that God would open your eyes. And I know that many others are praying the same including the Body at RFTH. You are greatly loved, Erik. By our Lord of course more than any of us.

From Janice on Apr 30th:

Erik, you said there was fear and sadness in being a Christian. What was your fear and sadness about? I have found much joy in knowing the Lord and recognizing His blessings in my life. I have found peace in not having fear of death. The most sadness I have felt is over those friends who do not believe and I wish they could know for themselves the blessings of being a believer. But God takes responsibility for their salvation so it is His burden rather than mine. My sadness is only momentary when I realize they will be saved in His timing and in His way if it is His will. Jesus gives us so much to celebrate. Through His death on the cross death was defeated. God's plan was complete. All people could be potentially saved from death and know eternal life with God. A time of no more sorrow and tears is our future. And for those times when we know sorrow and tears because of a loss here on earth our grief is less because of our hope for the good future and also because we have comfort from One who goes through the suffering with us, carrying us through it in His arms when necessary. So I do wonder if you knew the joy of the Lord back when you believe you were a Christian?

From Grant on May 1st:

Fear and Sadness are a part of life, whether you are a Christian or not. Jesus said, "In this world you will have many troubles, but I have overcome the world."

Apparently, fear and sadness leads some people closer to God and pushes others away from Him. It's all in the Book, but you have to have a new heart and new eyes to receive it.

From JCO on May 1st:

It seems like the bottom line here:

1. You accept religion, specifically Christianity, due to emotional reasons, not logical ones.

2. I reject Christianity, and all religions, from lack of reason, and evidence. Moreover, I think they are doing more harm than good in today's world.

3. Your acceptance of Christianity, vs. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. is due to your geographical location, and not based upon a rational choice.

From Believer on May 1st:

JCO-- If I am wrong I lose nothing, my friend if you are wrong, you lose everything! Are you truly prepared for that? I'm praying for you.

From JCO on May 1st:

Believer, what if we are both wrong and the one true god is Zeus? Pascal's wager is not an impressive argument for faith.

See this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

From Earl Edmunds on May 1st:

I trust no one that considers Youtube a crediable source in regards to politics or religion.

From JCO on May 1st:

Source isn't YouTube. Source is Richard Dawkins. What's the point of arguing with people that can't figure out the basics?

For those that need help throught the logic, your "what if I'm wrong" argument is folly because you all as Christians could be wrong about the infinite number of possible gods, religions, etc.

From Christ Follower on May 1st:

Okay, this is the last time I plan on spelling out the difference in christianity and any other possible "religions" in the world. It is the ONLY one that you can have a personal relationship with a living Savior who has died and rose again in order to give us the gifts of forgiveness & eternal life. NO other "religion" gives you this gift if you truly ask for it & unlike some people you must truly commit not only to the Savior part, but also to the Lord part. That's why some like Erik fall away. They like and want the idea of being saved, but just like the rich man is unwilling to follow & serve Him for LIFE. As Matt. describes their seed falls on the rocky soil and doesn't grow & therefore withers away or their seed is choked out by the weeds or sins and cares of the world. No other religion gives you a personal relationship with Your Savior & can give you an immediate dramatic change of life from things like addiction etc. So basically it's not so much a religion as a personal relationship with someone. That can't be explained to someone fully until they experience it themselves and unfortunately for you that takes a certain amount of faith to do so recognizing there is a Creator & we didn't just explode into existence which is in our minds not logical. Still praying for you. God bless

From JCO on May 1st:

CF, I like you. But, didn't Christ say himself:

'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.' (Luke 4:8)

It's clear that Christ didn't WANT you to worship him, but God.

Islam also claims all those things, and Islam claims it is the ONLY religion that you can have a personal relationship with Allah. They few Jesus like the Jews do - a false prophet. You know, it doesn't really matter that much, because all world religions offer you salvation, redemption, and all that jazz.

None of them are impressive to me. The one thing I WILL say about Christians though, it you are willing to take criticism! If this was an Islam board, I'd have my head chopped off about now ;)

From Janice on May 1st:

JCO, your comment about Jesus and scripture quote show that you do not have an understanding of the Trinity that you would get if you read the whole Bible. We worship the triune God which is Father God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in One. There are other devotions on this site about the Trinity that you may refer to for more discussion if you or anyone else wants to have a better understanding. Please just don't twist the use of scripture as there is one who does this in the Bible and he isn't known as a good guy. I am glad to see that you do have some respect for Christians and their tolerant behavior toward those who are critical of them. It helps knowing that God takes insults that are thrown our way and deals with them Himself for they are ultimately directed at Him.

From JCO on May 1st:

That's a good point Janice, I'm being careful NOT to criticize you, CF, Austin, Gerry, whomever... I'm really and truly not trying to be mean-spirited towards you guys. After all, as an atheist, I do have SOME morals ;)

I don't get the Trinity thing. I never have... Don't try to explain it though, because explanations always just sound like an infinite loop - he's all one, but three, but the three are one, but the one is actually three, but the three are one...and on and on...

From Christ Follower on May 1st:

Well, that particular instance Jesus was quoting the Old Testament to satan because he was trying to get Christ to worship him. You are well aware that thoughout the bible Jesus is called the Son of God and claimed to be the Son of God and at His baptism, as you also well know that God called out that-This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.In Daniel Christ was predicted be born and to be worshipped as God Daniel 7:13 Before me there was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory, and sovereign power; all peoples, nations, and men of every language worshiped Him. His dominion is an everlasing dominion that will not pass away and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" In Rev. there are scriptures mentioning the lamb or son of man being worshipped by angels exp.- Rev 5 8-13 I John Thomas called Jesus -my Lord, my God. In Matt6:9 and in John Christ says that He is th way and that no man can come to the Father but through Him. Rev 5 11:14 talks about the angels worshipping the Lamb of God Jesus Christ. In 1 John Christ says that I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. He accepted worship from Thomas when Thomas called Him mY Lord my God. Matt l:22-23 All this took place to fullfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel-WHICH MEANS GOD WITH US." But Jonathan you know all these things, but unfortunately so far this is one of the scriptures that pertains to you. 1 Cor. l 18:19 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who ARE perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written I will destroy the wisdom fo the wise: the intelligence of the intelligent I WILL FRUSTRATE. and 1Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does NOT accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they ARE FOOLISHNESS TO HIM and he CANNOT UNDERTAND them because they are spiritually discerned. Basically Jonathan for now I realize that it doesn't matter what evidence is put before you because these last scriptures are where you stand right now and hopefully someday and I hope sooner than later (or too late) that you will truly see and hear the scripture in your own heart and mind. I'm pretty much done for the day because like I said I understand what you're doing, but I also understand where you stand right now and quoting scripture isn't probably going to make a difference unfortunately-yet. God bless

From Christ Follower on May 1st:

I just read your comment about the trinity and we as Christians don't totally understand, but for me it is just sort of like me, my husband and my sons are all one big happy family, but we are 4 distinct people. Sometimes I think people try to make things a little more complicated than they are. The bible also refers to a man and a wife becoming as one. It didn't really mean we were permanently melted into just one individual person after marriage. Anyway just my opinion & I'm done for now- Again God bless

From Austin on May 1st:

JCO - it is obvious that you know little about Christianity. You don't seem to know much about Atheism either. I comment on atheism quite often because I used to be an atheist, I understood and defended atheism. You seem to pride yourself on logic, but make basic logical errors in almost every comment you post. I don't understand how someone with so little understanding can be so sure of himself.

From RickY on May 1st:

Jonathan, you are not the only person in the last 2000 years to bring up these objections. They are dealt with daily. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians that cannot respond well to the objections, but there are those who can, and they have been doing so down through the centuries. Plus, we have even more evidence today that points to theism and Christianity being valid word views in the marketplace of ideas.

First, you talk about logic, but you need to be aware of something called the genetic fallacy. In short, why a person believes what they believe has no relevance as to whether it is true. I could believe the earth is round and not flat because blueberrys are round. Even though my reason for thinking the world is round happens to be false, it does not make the world any less round. Similarly, the fact that I was brought up in a western, "Christian" nation has no bearing on whether Christianity is true.

Second, there is more than enough evidence to consider the first line of the Bible as being plausible: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.". It does not take much faith at all when you look at the cosmological argument and teleological arguments to believe at the very minimum that there is a personal, timeless, spaceless creator that created a universe that is incredibly fine-tuned to support life.

Third, if you could get to that point, you would feel no need to "get" the trinity. If you start with the underlying idea that there is a God that created everything, and he is outside space and time, you would not expect everything about how he is revealed to us to be something you could comprehend. In fact, we should expect that it would be very hard to comprehend some aspects of God, just like we cannot possibly comprehend what something would be like that exists in a fifth dimension.

Fourth, I also think there is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed, had a ministry of healing, was crucified for what he said and did, was buried, was not in the tomb three days later, and had followers who believed he was raised from the dead. You seem to keep going back to the idea that he may not even be a real person. No historical scholar, religious or secular, *that looks at the evidence objectively* thinks that. Plus, most agree with the items I listed as being likely true about Jesus, even if they don't believe that he performed real miracles or was the son of God. At a minimum, I certainly hope you can agree that our world was changed more by this man you say may not have existed, than by any other "historical" person you believe did exist.

From Erik on May 1st:

Interesting discussion here but we've gotten pretty far from the original point in the devotion. I'd like to bring it back there by saying that I think a God who would torture people for eternity simply because they asked for a little evidence would be a very evil God indeed. It makes me wonder what other kinds of bad behavior His followers will excuse on the presumption that it is 'God's will'.

From Gail on May 1st:

Erik, God does not torture anyone. The fact that He allows anyone in Heaven is unbelievable. Our ancestors Adam and Eve were used to bring sin into the world and God provided a Savior for us as recorded in Genesis chapter 3. By His love for us there is a Heaven instead of everyone going to Hell as we all deserve. I reiterate, I pray that God will open your eyes of understanding and you will be translated into His dear kingdom. So we will all continue to pray for you because we love you!!!

From Erik on May 1st:

Gail- I don't deserve eternal torture and neither do you.

From RickY on May 1st:

Erik, you're not interested in evidence. You spend your time reading books that recycle the same old arguments against God and on Websites that cater to "activist" atheists. It seems you are already convinced that there is no evidence for God, so your search should be over, and you could move on with your life. Instead, it seems as if your life's purpose is to oppose God and those who want to follow Him. If there were anything that would cause you to be separated from God for all eternity (i.e Hell), that would be it.

From Janice on May 1st:

To use the words of a former President, "there you go again" Erik, wanting to be God and say that none of us deserve hell. Is that your sticking point? Well, there is one way to find out for sure. Bryant has made it clear there is a choice. God loves you enough to not dictate to you your answer in regards to going with Him. I believe He trusts that He gave you a good brain that can read His word and recognize the consequences to saying, "Yes, I will go with You, God," or "No, I will go another way because I don't like the Way You would have me to go." It seems to me to boil down to rebellion against God. He certainly is familiar with that. Look at how many times the Israelites rebelled against Him and He kept giving them chances. Who knows when all the chances are all used up? Only God knows that for He sets the appointed time for our physical life and death on earth. Erik, I pray you don't use up all your chances. I can tell you are someone who likes to push things to the limit. We are praying.

From Erik on May 1st:

RickY and Janice- you don't deserve torture either. Well, Janice anyway.

From RickY on May 1st:

I don't deserve to be in a relationship with a holy God who cannot tolerate sin. Thankfully, he cares for me, even though I am a sinner. I have a friend in Jesus who paid for my sins so I can spend eternity with him. You can have that too.

From Erik on May 2nd:

RickY- With friends like that, who needs enemies.

From Gail on May 2nd:

Erik,
You are off the track by calling God's righteousness 'torture'. Hell is not torture, but a place for all those who are not saved by the blood of Christ. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8b) "By one man sin entered into the world (notice how God held Adam accountable) and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). Sin cannot enter Heaven because of God's holiness and righteousness. So going to Hell is not torture, but the destination of an unregenerate person by a holy God. But you see the Bible also says, "But the natural man (unsaved) receives not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). If you TRULY did accept Jesus Christ as your savior at one time, Erik, then you are currently walking in deception and will still go to Heaven when you die. I thank God for using you, Erik in all of our lives to stretch us and test our faith. "Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5) Our sovereign Lord has definitely brought you as well as all of us to this site for His glory. May today be the day for you.

From Christ Follower on May 2nd:

Erik- Matt. 13: 3-9 I'm guessing mostly verses 5&6 pertains. Still praying. God bless

From Erik on May 2nd:

You can quote bible verses and the plan of salvation all you want. I still say you don't deserve eternal torture for the sin of being born.

From Grant on May 2nd:

This could go one forever. Actually, it has and will.

I think that a "good" atheist is someone who has a pretty high view of themselves. They look at the world and say "I may only be here for a little while, but I'm going to do the best I can". They find significance in their "personal growth". They see suffering and they feel bad about and they try and help if they can. They see evil and they explain it as a result of environment or genetic predisposition. They only have one life to live, so they try and do it well. When a loved one dies, they celebrate his/her life and remember them well if appropriate in their judgement. They hope they will be similarly remembered. For the most part, I think they feel pretty good about themselves. They see Christians a misguided, superstitious, weak or hypocritical in various combinations, depending on the Christian they are encountering. I think that Erik and Jonathan are "good atheists".

A "good" Christian sees himself as a sinner that was born spiritually dead. They struggled to be as good as they could, but always came up short. Or, they may have simply been living in their sin thinking that they were free to do so, and "enjoying" it. Either way, something intervened in their lives. That something was the Holy Spirit. By that intervention, their heart and mind was changed. They accepted the Lordship of Jesus in their life. They still struggle with sin to one degree or another everyday, but now they do so with the help of God. They will continue to struggle and grow for the rest of their earthly life. They too try and help others who are suffering. But, they also want to share the good news that this suffering is not to prevail. They want to share the joy of knowing that death does not "have the final word". However, they can only "sow the seed of the Word". Whether the seed grows and matures is up to God. I assume that the Christians participating here are "good Christians".

There are also "bad" atheists and "bad" Christians (not really Christians at all). That's another discussion.

So, there is a spiritual chasm between us. We can interact with one another, but we cannot share true fellowship. We can be civil and get along. But the good Christian can never quit praying that God will change the good atheist's heart. That is our hope for you right up to the last breath you take.

From Janice on May 2nd:

Thank you Grant for saying that in such an eloquent way. In God's timing, in His way if it is in His will.

From Gail on May 2nd:

I think this devotion has generated a very good examination of both sides of the issue. Only one view is correct. Erik and JCO think theirs is correct and we Christians believe that the Word of God is the Word of God. My conclusion is that I am thankful that no matter what anyone believes God is in control and He will bring about what He has planned before the foundation of the world. And we will All find out someday what that is.

From Christ Follower on May 2nd:

Erik Matt 13: 3-9 doesn't have anything to do with the plan of salvation. Go ahead check it out especially 5&6 It might sound familiar. Also, it's funny that our pastor preached on what Grant was talking about. Basically that there are 3 types of people in this world, the natural ones that don't know the Lord at all, the worldly christians that Paul spoke of that still act like the unsaved, and the spirtual christians that are no means perfect but are doing their best to live a Spirit filled life. Erik, did someone who was a weak christian disappoint you? What does that have to do with Christ? I'm sorry, but it's just a fact that not all christians put Christ in the center of their lives. Like I said even Paul spoke of that. I do not keep my eyes on ANY other man to follow christian or not. I only keep my eyes on Christ & try to follow His example as much as I am able with the help of the Holy Spirit. Like you said, you know the plan of salvation and we've said pretty much all we can say. All we can do for you is pray for you & that God will reveal His truth to you, but He will not force you. None of us are robots. We have free will & it's up to you to choose. It's 10:44pm and I wouldn't be typing this if I didn't care about you, but besides praying I've basically done & said all I can say. I don't know what has caused such anger, but it is only harming you and no one else. God bless