HE"S ALIVE! - Becky

He is Risen! Praise the Lord! - Christ Follower

How do we know there WAS an empty tomb? - Erik

Well hello Erik, well it's pretty well accepted that it was empty because Roman soldiers were guarding the tomb because of Jesus's claim that he would arise in 3 days. - Becky

Becky- and you know this because...? - Erik

There would be doubters even if it had been videotaped. I know because I personally know people who don't believe we ever landed on the moon. How do you know about your birth? Perhaps there were many witnesses? But how do you know where you were really born and who you were born to? You can always find some excuse to doubt anything including are your parents even really your parents etc. In other words I believe in Christ more than ANY other fact in this world because I know HIM and I know what He's done for me. No doubts whatsoever and never will be- period. I truly do hope and pray someday Erik you can go beyond trying so hard to annoy and understand that it's not bothering us, at least in the way you think because we realize that unfortunately you're the one that needs the love,forgiveness, and salvation from a caring Savior. Do you know how we know that, because each and everyone of us has been there. So the only thing that's bothering us is our concern and love for you not your attempts to get under our skin.I hope someday you'll have a complete and total understanding of what Easter truly means. God bless. - Christ Follower

There has been documentation of the fact that was a ruler named Pilate. Proof that he sentenced a man to death because of his saying he was the son of God.
(Antiquities of the Jews-Josephus). Manners and Customs of the Bible (James M. Freeman), told many things that pertained to the death of Christ and his ressurection. There are many secular writings which back up the facts also. It is okay for people to deny the death, burial and ressurection of Christ, because it shows they just are not satisfied with other peoples beliefin a God of creation so they feel the need to meddle in something which will one day overtake them and then they become a christian. It is not a story of hate as some say but truly it is a story of ultimate love. God bless you Erik we are praying for you. - Jerry

Well Erik, I guess it's something that we could argue back and forth all day, but as Christ Follower sort of said you can doubt any segment of documented history.I've heard people doubt there was ever a holocaust of the Jews.I personally believe the Bible. I've seen shows that there have been cities discovered by archaeologists recently that were mentioned in the Bible but some doubted they existed before now. Mainly though, I believe because of what Christ has meant in my own life and that's really something that has to be a personal experience. It's not something I can prove to you-only He can. I don't remember where it's at, but the Bible does say you have to come to Christ with childlike faith. I have to admit faith is a huge part of the Christian life. Just look in the concordance of any Bible at the number of verses on faith. So, I'll have to admit there does come a time when you have to move beyond the mere worldly knowledge and step out on faith. Knowledge is good, but wisdom is better. 1Timoth 6:20 "Turn away from Godless chatter and opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith." I can't remember where they are right now, but there are other passages in the Bible basically stating how without the wisdom of God that wordly knowledge is basically useless. This is very paraphrased, but my point is, is that Godly wisdom is so much more precious than worldy knowledge basically. Besides the gospels, proverbs absolutely my favorite book of the Bible. It is full of wisdom or just basic skill in living. So anyway Erik it's up to you if you're willing to step out in faith and pray to Christ to become your personal Lord and Savior. It's not something anyone else can do for you. It's a decison you have to make for yourself. - Becky

Ok..I said no more posts, but it looks like I'm making another one.

I don't think Erik wants your prayers or requires them. He is an atheist and remains convinced you are all living extremely deluded lives by denying knowledge, logic and reason. You can all pray for Erik and me, for what good it will do. It's your time to waste.

This is Easter Sunday, and I'm mixed as to what to say. On the one hand I wish you all a "Happy Easter", and on the other hand, I know the origins of Easter are most likely a myth. The New Testament was written in a time when we understood zero about science, we knew nothing about how disease spread, where we came from, why some people just died early while others flourished, how bugs flew, what caused thunderstorms, what caused crops to fail. Very naturally, we tried to figure out what was going on because we didn't have science or any tools to explain our environment. We had pervasive ignorance. Thus we created a 'parent figure' in the sky that would take care of things and help us to explain our surroundings. Gradually though, religion started to lose the argument against science and rationality and today is losing the argument on a lot of fronts - medicine, neurology, chemistry, physics, geology, and yes - even ethics. Ethics is a body of knowledge that does exist completely outside any ancient holy books. Koran, Bible, Talmud, whatever…

Today we have many "holy books", and they are in conflict. Just one example - The New Testament makes it perfectly clear that Jesus is the Son of God, and you have to believe this or you'll spend eternity in Hell. The Koran says TWICE, that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, and anyone who believes that will spend eternity in Hell. This offers no room for compromise - we have a biblical claim and a Koranic claim.

Which is more likely? One is right and the other is wrong? Or that we have competing tribes who are toiling in abysmal ignorance about the world, the birth of the cosmos, and how the world actually works. But even if we grant that one of these books is correct...which one? i.e. How do you know whether or not to be a Muslim or a Christian? You don’t know. No one can tell me that by sifting through the ridiculousness of the bible and the Koran, the choice is obvious. It is not obvious. It was only by a mere accident of birth (where you were born) you believe that that one of these books is correct over the other. If you had been born in Afghanistan, you’d be following the Koran with all your heart, ignoring reason, and believing that Christians are completely deluded about the divinity of Jesus. As this fact is nothing short of ridiculous.
- Jonathan

Why so much hate Jonathan? No one is trying to annoy you, but sorry we are praying for you. As for the Koran and Bible thing, well the Koran makes it very clear Allah hates non Muslims. By contrast the Bible says "God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:16) When we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10) God loves the sinner, but hates the sin as seen in Pro.8:13 Anyway like I said before there is no comparison. We are not standing before a tomb with our religious leader still laying there, instead He's in our hearts. - Christ Follower

I apologize Jonathan, I should have said why so much anger instead of why so much hate. Sorry - Christ Follower

Maybe Erik should speak for himself about being prayed for. He might not have that much of a problem with it. Besides haven't "scientists" admitted that for some reason people being prayed for in the hospital do better, even those that didn't realize they were being prayed for :-)) - Becky

CF - there isn't anger, or hate. I'm just trying to point out your flawed logic.

Quoting scripture does not prove anything. And again, what if Muslims are right? If that is the case, you are as screwed as I am.

CF, you already know what it's like to be an atheist, for you don't believe in the Hindu gods of Bhraman, Shiva and Vishnu. You do not follow their teaching or any of their holy texts, which all have similar comments about love, etc. and the Jesus stuff you are spouting from the bible. - Jonathan

The only reason I used scripture was to highlight the difference in the two. The Koran teaches you can only go to heaven through good deeds and you should kill those who don't believe. Does that seem like a better option to you? Or the alternative- to accept a personal living Lord and Savior that has paid and forgiven our sins and loves us. Your decision. - Christ Follower

In reference to what Jonathan said about people knowing zero about science in the times of Christ, Jonathan you're a fool for thinking we know very much now. Despite the huge advances we have made in the last 2000 years since Christ lived, we are still unable to fully explain far more than we can. For instance, the intimate details of many basic processes found in our own bodies cannot be definitively explained on the microscopic level, such as how atp synthase produces atp (the molecule responsible for distributing energy about our cells for the non-science majors). Every model has failed at one point or another since its discovery, as to most scientific models as new information becomes available.
Now as a final suggestion to you, I wouldn’t be so quick to exalt the wisdom of science. It is filled with models, theories, and postulates that as a student of science I must honestly admit make since even when they contradict the exact letter found in the Bible. However, any honest scientist would tell you that these are just models, theories, and postulates. They aren’t set in stone. As far as we can tell at the current time they seem to make since. Twenty years from now they may seem ridiculous. Many times there two accepted yet contradictory views on a given system at once (quantum mechanics anyone?).
Science is limited as it can only look at the world objectively, and in doing so fails to explain love, copiousness, art, emotions, and the occasional documented anomaly the Lord (or perhaps the flying spaghetti monster if that makes you feel more comfortable) blesses us with. Those things can only be explained in two ways, either there is a higher power or we’re just as ignorant as our ancestors, run by the illogical accidents in our genetic code. The latter sounds like a rather bleak understatement of our existence, don’t you think?
- Bryan

Jonathan, you talk a lot about science. Almost every objection you have to Christianity (or your misunderstanding of Christianity) is rooted in science. How do you explain that 40% of the world's scientists are theists? How do you explain that the greatest scientist who ever lived, Sir Isaac Newton, was a Christian and wrote more books and articles on Christ than on science? How do you explain the Noble Prize winning physicists, geneticists, etc. that are outspoken Christians? - Austin

Jonathon, you do love to argue. You have proven that , you also have proven that you can not keep your word. I can understand that and I forgive you on my part. Welcome back we need some entertainment, your comments are quite funny while you seem to be losing your footing. Logic is usually good but sometimes it is not sound. I know we bother you because we believe in God, Christ and yes the Holy Spirit, but if you are so offended than maybe either you should view us with a more open mind or just quit viewing this site. Christians are not going away and they are all around you, so you might want to do as we do and learn to "live peacefully among all men if at all possibly". You don't impress me and I know know I don't impress you but lets agree to disagree. - Jerry

Hey Jonathan and Erik. I hope all is well. I want to thank you guys for making me a better Christian/person by reading and meditating on God's word. Jonathan in the Christian world, you are considered a "hypocrite" say one thing and do another, well welcome to Christianity! You are almost there!
Here's a good verse for both of you.."Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him. Proverbs 26:12"
May you both be blessed! - Stephen

A summary of answers to my question about evidence for an empty tomb:

2 people said you can doubt anything.

1 person said doubting the tomb was like doubting the Holocaust.

1 person said doubting the tomb was like doubting we landed on the moon.

1 person said there was a record of a historical Pilate.

1 person said because of personal belief.

Several "I'll be praying for you"s.

Pretty solid evidence you've got there.
- Erik

Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Ephesians 2:8-For by grace you have been saved through faith(not evidence), and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. - Keith R.

Thanks Keith R, that says it all right there, like I keep saying, pick up your KJV BIble and ask God to enter into your heart, doesn't matter what any of us say, only those who want to believe will. Yes, and everyone pray for those who don't know Christ yet.And yes, also all this doubt makes us Christians even stronger in what we believe. - Julie

Thanks Keith R, that says it all right there, like I keep saying, pick up your KJV BIble and ask God to enter into your heart, doesn't matter what any of us say, only those who want to believe will. Yes, and everyone pray for those who don't know Christ yet.And yes, also all this doubt makes us Christians even stronger in what we believe. - Julie

Erik, I gave you the name of the author of the books I wrote about(Proof of a Pilate) you have yet given any proof or reputable writings to back up any thing you have written. A whole lot of evidence on your part. Give it up Erik, you are rowing a boat but your oar is only on one side. You are going in circles and getting nowhere. I really believe deep down you might want to believe. Jonathon on the other hand just wants to spout off a lot science, probably from a book he found it his basement. Neither of you have come up with a solid foundation to back up any thing that you said. Give it a rest, you can't make me believe you are really upset because we believe in the Holy Trinity. You just get a kick out of ruffling a few feathers of people you choose to agravate. We still are praying for your spiritual condition because we do care for you. - Jerry

I never said there wasn't Pilate. When did I ever deny there was a Pilate? I said there was no empty tomb. Josephus mentions no empty tomb and no resurrection. - Erik

Okay, here's a logical question. Why have so many intelligent people been Christians? i.e. do Eric and Jonathan really consider themselves deeper thinkers than Einstein, Jefferson, Lincoln? Just curious... Oops, I really cannot prove that any of those people really existed. Never mind! - Bob

Bob- Lincoln was a deist,probably not a Christian; Jefferson was a deist, definitely not a Christian, and went so far as to cut the miracle stories out of his bible with a razor blade because he found them ridiculous;
and Einstein was an outspoken atheist. Any of them would be good to emulate. - Erik

Sorry Jonathan you are absolutely incorrect about Einstein. Agreed, he did not believe in organized religion, but he did believe in a Intelligent Creator. This is very well documented-sorry. By the way www. rae.org lists over 3000 scientists and professors along with their degrees and what they do and where they work that doubt Darwin's stupid theory. Oh and by the way what were your glowing credentials- I must have forgotten. Oh and as far as the religion discussion, just try to go on a Muslim site and say some of the things you've said here and see how many will tell you that they love you anyway and are praying for you or if perhaps like the prominent Italian Muslim that was just baptized by the Pope yesterday you receive death threats. Gee I wonder which I prefer. If you're trying to shake our faith you're not getting anywhere sorry. I hope deep down you're seeking some truths and it is for that we will all continue to pray about both of you and care for you because to one degree or the other we've been in your shoes and love you and hope you can become the person God meant you to be. - Christ Follower

Okay Erik and Jonathon, if you choose to continue to dispute the Bible and its contents that is your choice, but if you have children will you allow them to choose their own way or will you make them take the paths you have chosen? And when you come down to your lifes end what do you believe will be on your minds? Will you have a fear of death? I don't and I have already been pronounced dead once. I welcome death when God is ready for me, how about you? - Jerry

Sorry, I've also read much of Einstein and there are many many quotes attributed to him that contridict those. I'm going to just quote a couple that were made publically not just to someone?? Okay in a 1937 address to Princeton Theological Seminary "Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth & understanding. This source of feeling however springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image:science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Now an interview in the 1929 Saturday Evening Post- question- To what extent are you influenced by Christianity? answer- As a child I received instruction both in the Bible & in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene." question- Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus? answer-"Emil Ludwig's Jesus is shallow. Jesus is to colossal for the pen of phasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a "bon mot" question- You accept the historical Jesus? answer- "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling th actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." There are many many more quotes that I could go into including one that he plainly says he is not an aetheist or even a pantheist. He likened himself as a child going into a huge library knowing someone had to have written those words and not understanding the languages or understanding the mystery of the order of the books, in which he states "That it seems to me is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God." Einstein was granted a complicated individual, but for the most part did believe in God. Where the confusion I think comes is he said he believed in Spinoza's God "Who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings" So Jonathan it seems that he was somewhere in the middle- not an atheist, but not a born again Christian either. I'am done on this subject. - Christ Follower

Still waiting for evidence of empty tomb. Time to put up or shut up, I think. - Erik

I just subscribed to these devotionals yesterday and am saddened to read some of these comments. There is a very interesting book based on science by Josh McDowell called The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. Just wanted to throw that out there for all concerned. - swm

Dear Erik you'll find your evidence and proof when you accept Christ. There is no better evidence than knowing Him for yourself.Unfortunately we can't do that for you. All we can do is pray and love you. - Becky

Erik, who are you to demand proof? - Austin

SWM, I am sorry you have just come upon something that is unfortunate on this forum. We have a couple of people who have been trying to crush the belief's that so many people have and we started out trying to defend our faith and yes it has gotten out of hand. We have become like an animal who has had his chain yanked and we have started to fight back. Please forgive us and I hope we can get back to what this forum needs to be like. - Jerry

Who are YOU to make claims without
providing evidence? - Erik

If you truly want to know and aren't just trying to annoy then go to www. leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html You will have to be honest with yourself whether you really want evidence or not or just want to taunt. If you are a truly open minded individual you'll read it slowly and completely word for word.If we are wrong and you are right then we would be in the same boat if you are wrong and we are right then you've got a huge eternal problem. It's up to you if you want to read it with an open mind or not. Still praying for you
- Christ Follower

f you truly want to know and aren't just trying to annoy then go to http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/chap6.html You will have to be honest with yourself whether you really want evidence or not or just want to taunt. If you are a truly open minded individual you'll read it slowly and completely word for word.
- Erik

I will if you will - Christ Follower

Once again we are getting petty. Remember Christians we are not to argue the scriptures they will stand on their own merit. If anyone chooses not to believe and they cannot be persuaded to accept the scriptures then just agree to pray for them and let them deal with the situation on their own. Erik the point you made on the other devotion about Bryan Wright being on your secular radio station, when he quits appearing on it then you will leave this forum. Well he paid to be on a station that you listen too for free so you don't have any right to make demands. You also didn't pay to write in on his site so there again you are taking advantage of something free. Do you pay for any site personaly that someone can write to you. I will say again I will be praying for you whether you want it or not, and again that doesn't cost you anything either. It is apparant that you choose to continue the path that you are following. Is it true you wrote in back in August of 07 and said you were at one time a person who was on fire for the Lord? If so who did hinder you? - Jerry

It took a while, but I read your website. To borrow from you I didn't see the proof. I read the scriptures they mentioned and to me some just didn't quite jive with what they seemed to be trying to say. I started to, but it would really take too long to try to pick it all apart, but I hope you go back and read each scripture for yourself and see there is somewhat some discreptance in some of it. Anyway none of it disproves the life, death, and resurrection of Christ that was prophezied in the OT and the lineage in which He was born was documented through each person from generation to generation. If the tomb had not been empty why wouldn't the Jewish authorities have produced His body and carried it throughout the city and why would the disciples die for a legend. Why if this is all bogus does it seem to stir up such strong emotions for you. I don't believe in Islam or other religions, but I'm not getting on their sites being disrespectful just because I don't believe the same as they do. Instead I love them and pray for them and hope they'll come to know Christ. So Erik where is your proof He didn't live,die, and then be resurrected from the dead? - Christ Follower

Christ Follower- where is your proof that the Buddha didn't live, die and be resurrected to save men from suffering? - Erik

Christ Follower- where is your proof that the Buddha didn't live, die and be resurrected to save men from suffering? - Erik

Christ Follower- where is your proof that the Buddha didn't live, die and be resurrected to save men from suffering? - Erik

Don't remember saying Budda didn't live and die because last I heard they were moving him from Sri Lanka to India. Maybe he's already there by now. Would have to check it out. Guess that kind of rules out the resurection part though. You ask a lot of questions, but you still didn't answer mine where is your proof Christ didn't live, die and then be resurrected? - Christ Follower

sorry for multiples. - erik

Christ Follower- again, you are asking the wrong question. The burden is not on me to show things didn't happen. It's on YOU to give evidence for your claims. The Buddha's resurrection is spiritual. Can you prove that that didn't happen? Can you prove he didn't do miracles? Can you prove he wasn't sent from heaven and born from a slit in his mother's side as Buddhist legend claims?
- Erik

I have never read anything about Gautama claiming to be a god or having any kind of special birth.I'm not saying some legend didn't develop later, just that he didn't start it. He went about trying to do good works and wished for an end for suffering. That's actually a noble thing and there are those that are not Christ followers that do that today and I think that's great. Unlike Budda though, Christ Himself did claim to be the Son of God and his life, death and resurection is the proof. The bible says there are those that will not believe. Unlike Buddism, Christianity says it is through faith not works that you will be saved. It's up to you to believe or not to believe and know if you think your own works will get you to heaven or not. You are only one that will be ultimately responsible if you reject Christ or not. So if you can't give me the proof of Him not being the Son of God, I'am moving on to today's devotion. You can read the Bible for yourself and no one can make the decision for you or not if you reject Christ. I'll be praying that you don't, but that is YOUR decision no one elses. - Christ Follower

PS. I don't know if you checked out the website I mentioned, but bssically the Bible and all the prophcies of Christ's coming and having Him as our personal Savior is our proof. If unfortunately the Bible is not proof enough for you again it is YOUR decision to reject Christ or not. Now I really am going on to today's devotion. I'll check to see if you answer, but I've give you My answer. - Christ Follower

PS. I don't know if you checked out the website I mentioned, but bssically the Bible and all the prophcies of Christ's coming and having Him as our personal Savior is our proof. If unfortunately the Bible is not proof enough for you again it is YOUR decision to reject Christ or not. Now I really am going on to today's devotion. I'll check to see if you answer, but I've give you My answer. I pray that you don't reject Him. Do you? - Christ Follower

Christ Follower- all I saw in that article was the same old re-hashed army straw men that McDowell and others love to knock down.
Again, the original claim is that there was an empty tomb. Your only "evidence" seems to be asking me to prove that it didn't happen. Maybe I'm missing something though. Can you please give me a simple statement of what your evidence is that there ever was an empty tomb or a resurrection? - Erik

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,-a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemnend him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake himfor he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians so named from him, are not extinct at this day... Josephus. This was not one of the writers of the Bible but he was a Jewish historian who was not a Christian and still he wrote this not many years after the death of Christ. In these days people was buried in tombs and graves as Christ was. Even this writer told how Christ appeared on the third day. So there had to be an empty tomb after he appeared to his followers, this is historical proof to me so now it is time to put up your proof of there not being an empty tomb. I feel it is time for us to move on to something else, we have explored this to the extent that there should be no doubt of the ressurection of Jesus Christ. Again we are praying for you. - Jerry

Okay here's the deal. There comes a time when a person is either going to believe a loving caring God created the universe and our lovely home earth and if He did happen to do that, that He cares enough to get involved with our personal lives or they don't believe it. The Bible says He knows how many hairs are on our heads. If one does believe that God does care that much and doesn't think just a big bang created all the intricate beauty of the world, then why is it such a stretch to go from there to believe that what the Bible says that He came to earth to let our sins die on the cross with Him? Let's face it we've come to an impasse on the tomb thing as far as I personally anyway can convince you. I think we've both got to admit that there are people with higher IQ's than us that believe that it never happened and people with higher IQ's than us that believe it did. Especially if you are the Erik that says at one time was on fire for Christ, then maybe we can all discuss what the real issue is for you. Whether you're that Erik or not I don't think the tomb thing is the be all end all thing really for you. Because if it truly was empty as we feel then there can always be something else to be argued that someone needs proof. So what from a truly truly personal perspective is really your issue? Did a fellow Christian wound you or did perhaps life throw you a rotten curve ball? Not comparing you to him by a long shot, but only because I know of him as an example. I remember the publisher of Hustler magazine was supposed to have become a Christian and was supposedly on fire in the beginnning for Christ, that is until he was shot and ended up in a wheel chair. I guess my point is I wonder if there was some pivotal point in your life that wounded you somewhat or at least what is the real issue for you to be holding Christ at arms length? Did you if you did accept Christ at one time accept Him both as Savior and Lord. I only ask that because when I was very young I went along with the yea, I'll accept Him as Savior and basically live like I want to. I don't even really consider that the point of my salvation because I think the Lord really knew my heart and that I had only half heartedly commited to Him. At a later point I did accept Him fully and that's when the true change in my life happened. Now this is only my story but that's all I can really relate to you. He's given me a joy and happiness that's I never had before. Very much of the peace that passeth understanding. Yes, there have been tough times. It wasn't easy as an only child watching both of my parents pass away from cancer, but I truly just don't see how I could have gone through it without Him. So, you see it is more of a heart thing than a head thing perhaps because I said there are higher IQ's I'am sure on both sides than ours, but more than that it is a faith thing. As it is written Romans 3:2l But now a righteouness from God apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophest testify. This righeousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. and are justified freely by his grace through the redemeption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." So everyone is guilty of sin Rom 3:10 "As it is written there is no one righteous not even one." but there is no excuse to not believe Rom.l:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible quality eternal power and divine nature hav e been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:While we were still sinners Christ dies for us." Rom 6:6-8 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ we believe that we will also live with Him." Erik don't you want to live Him? Don't you want the freedom of having your sins forgiven? and as Rom6:ll Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Do you want to accept him Erik or reject Him? John3:36 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT WHOEVER REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIVE, FOR GOD'S WRATH REMAINS ON HIM" So that's about as plainly written as it can possibly be. It's by faith and not works lest any man should boast. So Erik you must decide if by faith you want to either accept or reject that is your decision. We are all praying that you'll decide to accept Him and eternal life with Him. God bless.

- Christ Follower

Christ Follower, The only person who could have put it any better than what you have just wrote would be Jesus himself. Thank God there are still some people who don't mind giving the word to defend the word. It will stand when nothing else will. I would love to have a bunch of people who know the scriptures like you do in the church where I pastor. Bless you and pray for me when you pray. - Jerry

Jerry, You don't know how much that means to me. I sort of thought Erik and myself were alone on this same devotion by now. I likewise have greatly admired your patience and consistency with our friends. I started to let you know earlier and I didn't and should have. Thanks again. - Christ Follower

The subject of the devotion was the empty tomb and the resurrection. So far I've seen lots of scripture, testimonies, etc, but I have seen no evidence for an empty tomb or a resurrection. So let's call that one settled.

Jerry- the passage you quote from Josephus is a later interpolation. Even conservative scholars like FF Bruce agree on that. Josephus was a Pharisaic jew, never became a Christian and thought the Emperor Vespasian was
the Messiah. It IS possible he mentions Jesus but the passages have been so tampered with it's hard to know what he thought of him. - Erik

Erik, The passage I wrote in was from his complete works book published in 1867. Yes his writings have been tampered with but so have a lot of the other history books. Yes I would say as far as those of us who have written would say that it is settled and my mind and it seems yours have not changed. I would die for my belief as should anyone who is worth their salt but we need to make sure if we would not be willing to die for our belief then we need to rethink them. God bless you you are in my prayers. - Jerry

Well Erik, the evidence has been presented before you-the prophecies, the Roman soldiers, and the 500 witnesses spoke about in the Bible. What you do with it is up to you. Please don't keep expecting God to give you something that He already has provided. It reminds me of the little joke where a group of men came to a man's house warning him there was going to be heavy rains and they expected a flood and that he should evacuate. The man told them he would not leave because God would save him. Then the rains came and there was a great flood and the man had to stand on top of his house. A nother group of men came by with a boat and asked the man to get in and the man replied no because God would save him. Then finally a helicopter came by and tried to get him to go with them and still he refused saying "No! I've been praying and God will save me!" Then after a while the waters rose even more and the man died. The man found himself in heaven before God and angrily said to God "I prayed to you to save me. Why did you let me die?" God replied " I tried to save you 3 different times. I sent a group of men to warn you of a flood, a boat, and a helicopter what else did you want?" So Erik you already have your evidence. It's up to you if you accept or reject it. I only pray you will accept it before it is too late. God bless. - Christ Follower

Ok- now we are getting somewhere. You are saying that the prophecies,
Roman soldiers, and 500 witnesses are your evidence, is that correct?
I'm sure you would say there is more but specifically you cite those three things as evidence. I would ask 1) How prophecies about a resurrection are evidence for it 2)How do we know there were any Roman soldiers (or any tomb for that matter) and 3)How do we know there were 500 witnesses other than Paul says so? - Erik

Erik - I think you purposely posting questions and starting debate with an inauthentic purpose. Also- you have never answered my question about what you believe in. You are wasting your time here. Why do you hate Christ so much that you spend all your time on this and other websites, some of which you own and operate. We are all here out of love and devotion to Christ. So why are you here? Have you accomplished anything? - Austin

Erik - I think you purposely posting questions and starting debate with an inauthentic purpose. Also- you have never answered my question about what you believe in. You are wasting your time here. Why do you hate Christ so much that you spend all your time on this and other websites, some of which you own and operate. We are all here out of love and devotion to Christ. So why are you here? Have you accomplished anything? - Austin

I support and applaud several of you, including "Christ follower" and "Becky". I love to study and comtemplate God's Word as well as what "intellectuals" say who have trouble believing the Bible. I'm not a Bible scholar, although I love to study it. Mostly, I believe in Jesus because I believe the Word is directly from God, and I see how He works daily in my life BECAUSE I believe in Him. For those requiring in-depth, intellectual proof, I know that everyone who has ever tried to seriously disprove Christianity has become a believer. So, why not test the evidence? Stop running your mouth and really check it out! It will change your life completely! And, also, for those who think Christianity is for the weak or the "less intellectual", consider John Calvin, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis........there's many more! Please check out, if you are serious, the books "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ", both by Lee Strobel. It will change your life!
In love with Jesus - In love with Jesus

It would help if I undestood where you think Christ's body was. Do you think it was still in the tomb or where? If it were still in the tomb why did the Romans or Jewish leader not produce it? As far as witnesses go he appeared to Mary Magdeline, to the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, 2 disciples at Emmaus, to fishermen on the shore, to James(not sure brother or cousin James) and then the 500 at once in 1 Corn. 15 3-8. Paul even stated that most of the 500 were still alive and could be questioned. It's not likely an hallucination would hang around for 40 days. The disciples themselves weren't sure if He was a ghost or what at 1st so they even made Him eat Lk. 24(36-43) and it mentioned Him eating again at some point. Hallucinations aren't known for carrying on long conversations as He did. As far as the disciples conspiring in some great hoax, these were simple men and really not known for being all that smart to be honest. This so called hoax they never refuted even when tortured in various ways and even killed.As far as the gospels being myths, down through the ages myths have been known for very grandeous style of writing not at all the concise style of the gospels where there were small details included that at times didn't even seem obvious why they were written. At the time what they call realistic fantasy didn't even exist and didn't until the 20th century. So in other words a simple tax collector (Matthew), a young man (Mark), a Dr. (Luke) and a fisherman (John) would have had to all invented it 19 centuries before it was reinvented. As far as the development of a myth goes it genenerally takes centuries for that to happen. There simply was not enough time since the gospels were 2nd century and Paul's letters were written while eye witnesses still existed. One thing not usually talked about is that of the witnesses the first ones were women. I imagine you already realize that women would not have been their 1st choice of witnesses given they were not even legally allowed to be witnesses in legal matters and had low social status and just generally not taken seriously. Given this don't you think they would have used men? That is unless the writers had to report it as it really was. 2nd Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." So if it was not a myth it was either the truth or a deliberate lie. Luke was written before Acts and Acts before the death of Paul which shows it's earlier date and authenticity by showing proper names, dates, cultural details, historical events,customs, etc that was before the destuction of Jerusalem which was in 70AD Jesus prophezied the fall of Jerusalem so the gospels must have been written before 70AD. In other words before time for a myth to develop. They don't try to cover up discrepancies of the witnesses that would bring more of a harmony to the gospels which would make them more likely to be fake if they had covered them up. And the issue of the Roman guards I don't understand your problem except that maybe in Mt. 28 11-15 It says the Jewish leaders spread the word that the guards had fallen asleep, but that's not likely for 2 reasons- they would have authomatically been killed and that's sort of motivation not to fall asleep, and the 2nd reason is that the number of people and commotion that it would have taken to moved the stone would have awakened them anyway.So either an extremely weak Christ that was on the cross and tortured before hand moved the stone, the disciples that died and was tortured for a hoax did, or as the gospel of our Dear Lord says and angel of God did, or the tomb was not empty and the Jewish leaders and Romans were letting themselves be a laughing stock for no reason. If you read the gospels for yourself God himself has given you all the evidence you need. You don't need any from me. This is as clear as I can be on the evidence. Now it's up to you to decide and we all pray you will see the truth. - Christ Follower

CF- your argument depends on the New Testament being an absolutely reliable and authentic record of history. There is no such book in antiquity. Furthermore, the Gospels are not written by eyewitnesses and don't claim to be. The idea that Matthew is the author of Matthew, etc is based on much later legends of the Catholic church. Do you believe all the legends of the Catholic church, or just these?

Speaking of legends- it doesn't take that long for a legend to form. My inbox is clogged with legends about Bill Gates, Procter
and Gamble, Wal-Mart, Barack Obama, and many other topics and persons of recent interest. And keep in mind the bible was written in a time when people were even dumber than they are now.

See here for more on the specific issues you raise:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/chap5.html

- Erik

You need to look up the names of the 12 disciples- remember Matthew and John? I would consider the 12 disciples as being eye witnesses. Of course part of the gospels are reports from eyewitnesses. Also there is a difference between lies, gossip and myths, but that is neither here nor there. As far as your website is concerned it looks like the same one you pointed out to me earlier. I looked it over and some of the scriptures they mention simply do not jive with what they say on the website. It's very misleading to me and I suppose could be very convincing if one did not bother to look up the scriptures. I really don't feel like picking it all apart since it is something you can look up for yourself. If you think that I'am the type person that likes to argue for the sake of arguing you're barking up the wrong tree. I've pointed out the evidence that you asked for so now it's up to you to decide, but something tells me you would prefer to argue about it rather than really considering its truths. All of us have tried to answer your questions for your sake. I don't think any of us relish arguing for the sake of arguing, so if that's what you want you'll have to look to someone besides me anyway. I know you don't care, but we are still praying for you to come to know Christ as Lord and Savior. - Christ Follower

I don't like to argue for argument's sake either. I want to get to the bottom of some of these things and see what is true. The only way we can do that is by having these discussions. I would like more than anything to be proved wrong, since that means I've learned something I didn't know before.

Specifically answering you: the Gospels are anonymous. They were given the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John based on Catholic tradition. They could have easily been named Joe, Frank, Bill and Steve. They aren't even independent accounts. Matthew and Luke are copied from Mark with extra material added (even conservative scholars agree on this); Mark itself is drawn from a source called Q which is now lost but which was probably a bunch of "sayings" of Jesus sort of like Proverbs.

If you don't believe me ask your preacher. It's fun to see them sweat. - Erik

Also- you said the page I referred you to was misleading and that the scripture referenced didn't "jive."
Can you cite some specific examples please. You don't have to go into a long explication if you don't want, just an example or two. I honestly don't know what you are referring to. - Erik

Erik, where do you come up with your imformation proving that this came from the catholic church. The original manuscripts were written before the catholic church came into exitence. Yes after it started they tried to keep all the scriptures to themselves until Martin Luther started the reformation and then wrote his 95 article thesis and nailed it to the door of the Vatican and then he translated the scriptures into the German language. I have never heard your point until you wrote it and I have been in the ministry for 29 years. And i hope it is not from one of your famous websites. - Jerry

Okay I'am really really tired so hopefully this will make a little sense. On your website where it's arguing the spirit flesh thing. Which basically I pesonally feel like who cares. The Son of God can be in the flesh or the spirt whatever He wants to do as far as I'am concerned, but anyway they seem to be all bent out of shape saying that in ICor.15 says Christ was in the spirit not in the flesh. They quote v45 as saying Paul can say that Jesus by His resurrection became a spirit. This is what it actually says and we need to go through v49 to get the whole thing. Okay-"So it is written The first man Adam became a living being; the last man Adam a life giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spirtual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth;and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." Okay it really has nothing to do with Jesus's body on this earth it is speaking of His and ours in heaven.1pet.3:18- In my opinion speaks of the 3 days between the time of his death and the time He appeared to His disciples. During this time He was in the spirit with those that had already passed away (the spirits in prison) which some say is Hades. People tend to get Hades and Hell confused. That's basically what they're so bent out of shape on your website about, is saying that these scriptures say that Christ was in the spirit, but yet the gospels say He was in the flesh. So anyway my interpretation is- He was in the spirit the 3 days after his death, but before he arose.During this time He went down to Hades or as it says to preach to the spirits in prison, then He ascended to the Father and came to the disciples in the flesh. How He did this- who cares. I mean really . You can peck things like a duck, but what's the point? We don't even understand death or so many things of this world why would we think we're going to understand everything in the Bible. Okay, as far as the authorship of the gospels I'am going to basically quote what I found on a website that I'll give the address at the end- With the recent scholarship on the dead sea scrolls new evidence points to the authorship of the original authors. Father Reginal Fuller an Episcopalian and Prof. Emeritus at Virginia Theological Seminary with Dr. Carsten Thiede(can't read my own spelling) have analyzed 3 papyrus fragments from the 26th ch. of the gospel of Matt. They date it the yr.40 which would indicate the author was a witness to Christ's ministry. Jesuit Father Jose O'Callahan studying the gospel of Mark using paleographic means dated them at 50 again indicating an eye witness . Episcopalian Bishop John Robinson also posited from his research all 4 were written between 40&60 AD. This new research is not only questioning some of the modern scholarship but also supporting the traditional authorship." All this was found at www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1791556/posts Aso I found some of what you mentioned about the Q or Quelle Basically that website said that Mark & Luke share some info and that some scholars believe that the material common to the 2 gospels but missing in Mark came from a now lost collection of sayings by Jesus called Q. The fact that Matt. places many of Jesus teachings in a totally different context than Luke suggests he may have been correcting an earlier acccount. So anyway basically this is the deal Erik we can go back and forth and find something that someone has written to support both sides. My position is simply this-that Satan is desperate to keep the truth away from people and is always going to attack in some way the scriptures. My suggestion is for you yourself to read Christ's words in the gospels with an open mind and heart and not keep going back and forth with what different websites say to you, but let Christ truly speak to you. He told the Pharisees though that there were some that would not hear his voice. I sincerely hope and pray that you are not one of them. I and others have dedicated a lot of time trying to answer your questions. In my case believe me it has absolutley nothing to do with liking to debate or argue. I was brought up with that. I had a father that if you said it was raining would say no there is some sunshine out. He just loved to argue for the sake of arguing. Anyway, I've put aside other things that I could have been doing and actually should be doing BECAUSE I CARE! I can't convince you really though, only the words of Christ can, so I truly hope and pray that you'll immerse yourself in His words and not in bouncing back & forth for evidence and opinions that there is always going to be an argument for either side. The thing is your eternal outcome is going to be determined by which side you chose. All of us on this forum I'am sure will be praying for you, but again if you do want to argue for the sake of arguing I'am not your person. Take care! and God bless!! - Christ Follower

PS. I definately did not mean that I felt like I had wasted time answering your questions or regretted any of it. I was afraid that it might have come across that way. It's just that it's almost 1:30 at night and I'am tired and need a break is all I meant. - Christ Follower

Jerry- from the Catholic encyclopedia. First section-"Titles of the Gospels"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm - Erik

CF- you took the time to write a careful and thoughtful reply & I want to respond but they've got this ridiculous notion that I should work at work...will post soon. Thanks for the patience. - Erik

CF- reading over your previous post it seems you are saying that because there is evidence for and against the gospels that there is no way to know what is true or more likely to be true. I don't think that is the case. I think some arguments are better than others.

Regarding the spirit vs. flesh thing- reading all the verses in context does not seem to bear out what you are saying. Paul seems very convinced that resurrection is of the spirit only. Paul goes out of his way to say that. He is indeed describing the resurrection of believers but he says that their resurrection will mirror that of Christ- a spirit. It only makes sense when you realize that this letter of Paul's was written much earlier than the Gospels, and that as time went on the legends became embellished as people wanted to hear stories of flesh-and-blood, Night of the Living Dead-style resurrection.

Regarding the link and info you posted on Thiede et al- he based his ID of the gospel of matthew on
a scrap of papyrus with a few letters on it. Most scholars doubt it is Matthew, but even if it is it only proves that there is evidence for passages of matthew around 68ce. Still says nothing about authorship.

The Q hypothesis is widely accepted by scholars. Virtually everyone admits that Luke and matthew are copied from mark with
material from Q added. There are details that can be argued- and are- but no one doubts that Luke and Matthew are dependent on earlier material. In any case we aren't talking about eyewitnesses. there are no documents by eyewitnesses in the NT. - Erik

Sorry I didn't realize you had answered my other post. Again it's after 1o'clock so I'am not going to really bother to rehash everything, but I did want to thank you for the respectful tone of your post. I guess for now we'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good night. - Christ Follower