I agree with this devotion; however, I can't believe that no comments have been made. I would think that even after being saved, a person could commit many sins that are absolutely not in the will of God.

It also makes me wonder about our sons who both became Christians and were baptized as young men. They are still strong believers, but one is also gay. What about the rapist and murderer who became
true believers in their youth?

It would be a comfort to me if I knew that our gay son was not condemned to Hell.

Salvation is by Faith alone. For those whom God foreknew, he predestined, and those whom he predestined he elected, and those whom he elected he justified, and those whom he justified he sactified. All of this is by faith alone, so that none migh boast of works. Once you grasp the difficult doctrine of election you feel a liberating love that can not be destroyed.

"Those her were with us, but not a part of us were not really with us". Jesus looks into every heart. He knows his sheep and they know his voice. None tnat are given to him by the Father will be lost. "many will come and say "Lord Lord", but I will not Know them. I will say depart from me...........

When I beheld the truth of God's sovereignty and election I knew that I was not responsible for anyone's salvation. God works through me using me as an instrument for what He has planned before the foundation of the world. I don't know whom He has elected and we all must come under the hearing of the gospel. So the liberty I have to minister for the Lord with no pressure is definitely a rest in the grace of God.

WOW..... I know there are people that believe this and i have heard it for years but this idea of "Once Saved, Always Saved" is absolutely not scriptural. We are accountable for our sins and if found in sin when Jesus calls us out of this life, then there is no way we can enter the Kingdom of God because there will be no sin there. The adulterers, fornicators, thieves, liars, murderers, and many others including those living a life style that the Bible calls an abomination will not go to heaven unless they have repented of this sin and turned aside from their evil ways to walk in a path of righteousness that God has ordained for all of us. Saying one who is actively participating in sin and dies while in their sin is going to heaven, is misleading. I've enjoyed most of your devotions but i can not agree with this one. I urge you to check out the scriptures concerning living in sin and the consequences of such.

Thank God for repentance and the in-filling of the Holy Spirit.
John

John, So you are telling me that once you were saved you ceased all sinning?

John, To make a comment and say that Eternal Security is unscriptial, is beyond me. I wish you would read some scriptures and then tell me that Christ can't save and then keep a person secured in his will.
Hebrew 6:4-6, tells us that it is impossible for a person to taste the goodness of salvation and then fall away and then renew their salvation again. To be able to do this would put Christ to an open shame. God does not ever intend for that to happen.
John 10:20 Christ is thanking the Father for those that God has given him, and he even says that nobody can pluck them out of his hand. I am secured in his hand, and he is able to keep me in his will.
John 3:16 even says we will have everlasting life.
I could go on and list many more scriptures but there is no need. I want you to do me a favor and list some scriptures on here to prove your claim. I don't mind disagreeing on interpretation but when you compare apples to apples, you will still get apples. Give me scripture to back up your claim and then we can begin to sort everything out. I do not use the term "once saved, allways saved," it gives a sense of false hope, but I do believe in eternal security. Also to make the statement that you made, it seems to me that you do not trust God to be able to keep you and what you have committed unto him. Read 11Tim 1:12, Paul is telling Timothy that he is not ashamed to suffer for Christ because he is able to keep that which he had committed unto him. My God is able to save me and keep me, until the day that he calls me home to be with him. The doctrine of being saved over and over is unscriptual. I have friends who believe this and it is because someone has told them this belief, and they believe it because they have never studied the scriptures themselves to find out for sure. If a person is truly saved in the first place then they will not want to go back out in sin and do the will of Satan. Do I sin? Yes I do, so do you, but that does not mean I am no longer God's child. I ask for forgiveness and God grants it to me. That is what repentence is all about. If my son does something that I don't approve of, that doesn't mean that he is no longer my son, it just means that I am upset with him. When he apoligizes then all is forgiven. Now is the God you serve able to do that? I believe he is, if we are serving the same God. Christ died once not many times, so a person only has to be saved once, not many times.

I admit to some doubts on this. The main scripture giving me pause for thought is that of the “unforgiveable sin”. I understand this to be the sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit at some point (after acceptance?). I think this is very different from expressing a belief/faith and then sliding away into sin at various stages in one’s life. So many testimonies attest to the truth of God’s unconditional forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus and many of us have experienced God’s great grace underneath our falls, knocks and wanderings; and His presence with us when we have to live with the consequences.
Another cautionary, scriptural, thought to consider is that we will not be made perfect until we meet with Him (“every single one has fallen short”) and so our sinful nature continually prompts us on matters of disobedience. I think that if we consciously choose disobedience, then there is a case to be made on “the hardening of our hearts”. Arguably, that hardening could lead to our ultimate rejection of Jesus in favour of the sin we refuse to give over to Him.

Christian, your son is not condemned to Hell for being gay. If his faith is in Jesus, he is saved, plain and simple. The matter of how the Lord speaks to him in his situation is between him; his Lord; and the loving people around him who will pray for wisdom and guidance on what cannot be an easy road. Peace with you and I pray that your son will be loved and not judged by the faith community. So much terrible damage has been caused by the sin of judgement from within our ranks – a sin as great as any other.

(In searching the Bible refs for unforgivable sin (Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29, Matt 12: 31-32), I found the following quote from a webpage quite useful:
“God has given us all free will and whether we accept Jesus Christ is eventually left up to us. But the Holy Spirit spends your entire life trying to bring Jesus Christ into your life, and if you die still rejecting his efforts, then you have committed the unforgivable sin. If you leave this world still having a unrepentant heart, then you have committed the unforgivable sin. And God will not want those in heaven with him who have been so contemptuous and rebellious. Ask yourself this one simple question. Would you want to spend eternity with people who are not sorry, and who don't want to stop participating in thievery, adultery, murder, and hate?)”

On reading the verses, it is not clear whether or not this could ever happen to a person who has accepted the Holy Spirit. One of the verses says you will be forgiven if you blaspheme against Jesus, but not if you do against the Holy Spirit. Apologies, I’ve not looked up the references for “hardening of hearts”. I also apologise sincerely if this only serves to confuse, possibly I’ve confused myself …. :)

I drafted this before reading Jerry’s post, which I’ve found very helpful indeed – thank you. I still find the stuff I’ve mentioned thought provoking …

Christian, As I understand the Scriptures, homsexuality is just another sin. It didn't even make the "big ten". However, all sin is intollerable to a holy God. Only through the substitutionary holiness of His Son can we come into his presence. When we "put on Christ" we are to repent of our sins and seek to begin living holy lives.
As I said earlier, we all continue to sin after conversion. The issue is denial of sin, or worse calling what the scripture says to be sin to be acceptable. Only God knows our hearts and I believe that he - Jesus - will judge us on the content of our hearts as we relate to him. His nature is to save, to forgive and to restore.
I realize that this is not a definitive answer to your concerns. It's just "food for thought" as you seek answers in your Bible study and prayer life. Your son is a beloved child of God and I pray that he will seek to know and follow our Lord.

Greetings,
I have read your comments that was made in response to what i said about "Once saved, Always saved". I regret that i can not respond tonight but i will. I have been in the shop very late the last few nights and don't have the time right now. A couple things though for tonight. If you notice, I said: " We are accountable for our sins and if found in sin when Jesus calls us out of this life, then there is no way we can enter the Kingdom of God". In this, the key words are "if found in sin", meaning actively participating in sin and not repenting of it to cease the sinful lifestyle. Example: living in fornication or adultery. People, unmarried, having sex or having sex with someone other than a spouse while married are committing sin. This will keep them out of heaven.

Yes, i belive in repentance, as i said in my last post. If you look in the dictionary, the word repent means to turn away from sin. Upon repentance, one is to actively pursue turning away from that sin and not go back to it. Do i mean if one does repeat, they can't repent again? No. But, while in an unrepented state and doing the sin, they separate themselves from God. Someone mentioned John 10:20 and said no one can pluck him out of His hands. I agree, no one else can pluck me out of God's hand but i can pluck myself out of them by choosing to live in sin. We were created with a free will choice of our own. God will not make us do anything but we can make the wrong choices and separate ourselves from God. God will not tolerate sin.

Some are misleading concerning homosexuality. Some scriptures concerning this are: Genesis 19:, Leviticus 20:13, Deuteronomy 23:17, 1 Kings 14: 24, 15:12, 22:46, Isaiah 3:9, Romans 1: 24-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Peter 2:6-7, Jude 7. The Bible calls it an aboination or something that is extremely disgusting or hated. God hates the sin but loves the person. If the person will repent and leave that lifestyle, God will forgive them and they can be saved. God saves us from our sins.

Ok, i will come back to the "Eternal Security" topic but i must go for now so i will be able to get up in the morning.

God be with you!
John

All sin is an abomination to God. "None is without sin, no not one", "All of our righteous deeds are like filthy rags"....

There is one way, and only one way for us to stand before God and be acceptable in his sight. It has nothing to do with what we do or have done. It has everything to do with what Jesus did and is doing for us.

I don't mean to say this in an argumentative way. It is just the plain truth of the Gospel.

After living my entire life as a Christian, it was most disturbing to find that our son was gay. It was apparent when he was very young, and he said that he first knew it when he was in elementary school. I sincerely believe that his deep study of Christianity was done in hopes of making these "bad feelings" go away.

After many discussions with many gay people, 100% of them stated that they knew they were gay in elementary school. I found this shocking. It hurt me to think that these young children lived with that guilt and fear by themselves. It was so horrific that they could not share it with anyone.

As I study the Word of God, the worse verse states that homosexuality is an abomination. However, I also bring your attention to Proverbs 23:2: "If you are given to gluttony, put a knife to your throat." I can't say that in all of my years in church, I've ever heard this scripture mentioned. I've checked every version of the Bible I can find, and the statement is basically the same.

Speaking for all gluttonous people, I pray that God will see fit to allow those of us who are overweight to enter the kingdom of God. It is so serious that in every interpretation it indicates “slitting your throat”.

I do not approve of looseness in the interpretation of God's teaching regarding our sexual lives; but I think my God would see a difference between ignoring God's Word and it's instruction regarding homosexuality, and loving our gay son. I'm not trying to cause an argument. I'm just stating my belief that people are born homosexual. Those who choose to go wild and experiment with all kinds of indiscretions (as in Sodom and Gomorrah) ignore the Word of God.

Our son is in a monogamous, long term relationship. He is God's child as he is mine.

I feel much worse about my gluttony than our son's homosexuality. I hope God will allow us all into Heaven.

Why, after spending over 60 years in church, was I never told about the sin of gluttony?

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty or unsure of God's love. I plan to be in Heaven one day . . . . . with our son . . . . . and his partner.

Christian, no you don't hear much on the sin of gluttony because it hits too close to home. I am overweight, and I don't like hearing about it everytime I go out either. But this sin is a sin against my ownself.
I disagree with a person being born homosexual. If it is an abomination to God then God would not create a person and them be that way when born. There has not been any conclusive proof that a person has this type of gene in their bodies. Because of freewill they choose to be this way. I have several people in my family that choose to live this lifestyle. Most of them were married at one time and then they decided to change their preference of sex. Read Lev 20:13 and this will explain Gods view on this sin. If a person repents of a sin, and seeks forgiveness of that sin then they do not keep committing that sin. God created man and woman for each other to have companionship and to procreate other humans. Man with man, women with women cannot create and this goes against God's will. I am not making a judgement I am just trying to show you some scriptures.
I know someone will say I am being doubleminded, but I am not, remember the scriptures says the one who willfully sins, there remaineth no more sacrifice.
God bless you and have a good day.

Jerry said, "I disagree with a person being born homosexual. If it is an abomination to God then God would not create a person and them be that way when born."

I think it is quite possible for a person to be born with homosexual tendencies. I also think it is possible for a person to be born with a tendency to gluttony, or a tendency for anger, or a tendency toward depression, or a tendency toward addiction. (I could keep on going.) Remember, we are born in a fallen world.

I think all of us have that one major sin tendency, that seems to be the one we have the most problem with. However, just because you have that tendency doesn't make it a sin. Giving in to it is what makes it a sin.

Let me add something about that one major sin tendency. The first step is to identify it, but I don't think that is too hard to do (but sometimes hard to admit).

Then pray specifically that God will release you from that tendency. That may not be enough. (remember when the disciples were not able to heal someone, it required fasting.) Sometimes professional help may be needed. Lastly, "flee from temptation." We've all heard about the person who, when checking into a hotel, asks that they turn off access to the adult channels. If that is what it takes, do it. I think all of these things match up with the verse in Proverbs taht was mentioned earlier, or the verse that says if your right hand causes you to sign, cut it off.

John, we are waiting for your scriptures, to prove that we can lose our salvation. Please post them when you can

There are numerous forms of sex related sins. Homosexuality is just one. I dare say that the heterosexual sins of adultery, sex out of wedlock, and pornography (to name a few) are much more prevalent in the church than homosexuality. My own youth was pretty unacceptable.

We need to be sure to take the log out of our own eye, before we can remove the speck from another's. That being said, I don't see how being in a loving, monogomous, happy sinful relationship makes it less sinful. But that will be between him and the Lord. I cannot condone it myself, but neither do I set myself in a position to persecute either.

After all, Jesus came to save sinners. He did not come to save the righteous. As his church, we shoud do no less.

A few years ago, the Methodist church did a 3 1/2 year study on homosexuality. More than 25 church representatives did an in depth study on the subject. An adult Bible study was written. Much was learned; however, the one statement I remember most is that the study group agreed 100% that in the thousands of people they interviewed, all said that they did NOT choose to be gay. No exceptions.

Also, with the varied opinions, by saying a practicing gay person cannot go to Heaven contradicts the original Daily Devotion that says if a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, they cannot go to Hell no matter what crimes they commit after being saved.

In some scriptures that refer to homosexuality, the sin is far more complicated than just being homosexual. (as in Sodom and Gomorrah.)

I am also still confused about why the scripture about homosexuality being an abomination must be taken literally, but not the scripture on gluttony.

Jerry, I think you mean the other John. My view is that there are many mores scriptures that support the fact that you CAN'T lose your salvation. Two I remember seeing recently are Romans 8:38-39, and John 10:29. Logically, it would seem that if you coudl lose your salvation, then that would suggest that it is not just based on grace, but also on works. There is one verse that is confusing to me. That is Hebrews 6:4-6. This verse does eeem to imply that one can lose his salvation. Look at that one, and tell me what you think of it.

John, look at what it is saying, "it is impossible..." This scripture is saying that you can not be enlightened and then fall away. The word enlightened describes a person who has claimed to be a believer, a believer is one who has been saved. To "have fallen away" means to commit apostasy. which means to renounce a religious faith. Alright we have a person who claims to be saved and now they are saying they are lost again, what does this do to the doctrine of salvation? It puts Christ to an open shame, it says he doesn't have the power to keep a person saved. He is God, why can't he keep a person saved?

Jerry, looks to me like it is saying it is impossible to regain salvation.

I think the following verse has a bearing on this subject. 1 Cor 3:12-15: "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I have to confess I did not read all postings in depth, but I am completely confused. How can one be saved, then decide to move on to being a murderer, an adulterer, a child molester, a homosexual or commit whatever other sin that is specifically addressed in the bible and still be saved?

Paula, They were not saved in the first place. Jerry has it right.

John the scripture you mentioned in I Cor 3 needs to be looked at from the beginning of that chapter and then read up through the verses you mentioned. Paul is speaking to two different kinds of believers.
1.Spiritual believers. These are controled by the Holy Spirit. These are those who have been truly saved and born again.
2.Carnal believers. This group can be divided into two different groups. The first can be described as babes in Christ who have never grown in the Spirit. They were saved but they never applied themselves. The other group can be those who have professed to have been saved but they never truly accepted Christ as their Savior.
The foundation that Paul is speaking about is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. If anyones salvation is built on anything other than Christ, their salvation will not last. Christ was first the creator, then our Redeemer, the foundation of any true and lasting Christian life.
Those who have applied themselves in study of the Bible and have made themselves available to do the work that has been placed into their (our) hands, are compared to those who have built on the foundation using good material (gold, silver...)
Those who have not applied themselves (babes)are those who have built using bad materials, (wood, hay, stubble). When these stand before the Lord their works will be judged by Christ, not mankind. The cleansing fires of Christ's judgement seat will judge our works as to if they will be good or bad (II Cor 5:10). These will be believers and the judgements will determine only rewards or loss of rewards. Many do not believe in degrees of rewards but that can be a topic for RFTH to concider at a later date.
Those who are not saved will not be at this judgement, which is called the Bema Seat. The lost will appear before the Great White Throne Judgement which will be judged by God himself.
This scripture does not have anything to do with being saved and then lost again. I hope this will help you to understand this scripture a little bit better. If I have mis-interpreted this scripture then please forgive me but I do not believe I have. Maybe Grant might understand this a little better, or maybe Bryant may chime in a little bit and help us out.
May God bless all as we study together.

Jerry, probably time to move on regarding this subject, but one more thing regarding 1 Cor 3 (mainly verses 12-15). The point I was attempting to make was in reference to the person who builds with wood, hay, etc. His foundation is Christ, so he is saved but all of his (fruits, witness, etc.) gets burned up. Maybe one example of this person is the type of person we have been discussing in this topic. he accepts Christ (builds on the right foundation) but can't pull away from sin. (He loses all, but his salvation)

Not available to comment anymore today, but I have enjoyed our discussion.

John, one of us seems to understanding the burning of the hay & stuble incorrectly. I do not believe these represent his salvation, I believe they are his rewards which he will not receive because he did not apply hisself in the service of the Lord. When I say he, this also can be a she, lets be equal here lest the politically correctness police gets after us. I have done a great deal of research in commentaries and study Bibles and everyone of them agree with my view. I did not find the first one to agree with your view. Even the Dake Bible agreed with what I wrote and he (Finis Dake)believed you could lose your salvation. I believe if you will concider this view and read it in that aspect you will see that this scripture has nothing to do with losing your salvation.
If I am wrong I wish Bryant would post on here and correct me. I am not above being wrong and when I am I want to be corrected. Have a blessed day

Thanks, y'all for the thoughtful discussion. This is, IMO, how this site is to be utilized. The light of God's word is shining out into the world.

Some scriptures concerning loosing your salvation. Someone mentioned apostasy, here is Webster's definition of APOSTASY

1
: renunciation of a religious faith
2
: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

The greek term for apostasy is defined as a falling away, defection, withdrawal, or turning from what one has formerly turned to.

To apostatize means to sever one's saving relationship with Christ or to withdraw from a vital union with and true faith in Him. Individual apostasy is possible only for those who have first experienced salvation. Heb. 6:4-6. Take it all in context. The writer here is talking about one falling away from the Faith, Jerry and not saying that it is impossible to fall away. Also, look at the parable of the sower. Luke 8:13, "They on the rock are they, which, whey they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils: speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron"...... 2 Timothy 4;10 "For Demos hath forsaken me; having loved this present world....." The bible also sates we can not love the world and also love God. 2Thessalonians 2:1,2, then 3"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

All the Epistles were written to christians, people who were already saved. The Epistles instructs them on how to live a Godly life. However, due to persecution and discouragement, some of them left there first love of God. The Bible uses the term brethren to group fellow believers, brothers in Christ, saved people.

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

A few times, the writer of Hebrews warns his readers about the danger of falling away from the faith. Vrs:13 - "But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." vrs: 14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." ....read on to the end of verse 19.
Also, Hebrews. 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." We do not have to be afraid of loosing our salvation as long as we reverent the Lord and ask forgiveness of any sin that we commit and try to refrain from doing it again.

Other Scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15;1-2
1 Timothy 6;10
2 Timothy 4;1-4
Hebrews 2;1-3
James 5;19-20
2 Peter 1;8-10
Galatians 5:1-4 fallen from grace

I have not yet listed the scriptures that talks about sins such as fornication, adultery, stealing, and many other sins that can not enter the kingdom of God. Rev. 21:8 has some more along with the consequences of them. Sin separates us from God. Even if we were saved at one time and are still believers, if we abide n our sins, we are none of HIs.

It is almost 3: A.M. and i must get to bed so i can get to work in the morning.

God Bless you
John