"...and then the cab driver asked me to read the Koran with an open mind and ask Allah to reveal himself to me. But I didn't because unlike the cab driver I know I'm right."

I've been a Christian for many years & was taught that Jesus is Jesus and God is God not Jesus is God. How can Jesus be God if He is the son of God?

MJ if you study the scriptures you will find the the Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that all three are one. Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. This tell us that they are one. I don't have room on here to write all the scriptures that goes along with your question. Keep searching and you will find it in the Bible.
Eric, give it a rest, we know your belief, and this is an old argument, and this is not the place to continue it. RFTH pays for this site so respect them.

Eric, I apolige to you, it is my understanding that I am out of line with my comments to you and JCO. I will not make anymore comments on your belief.

MJ, I'm curious what faith you were from. One of the critical tenants of Christianity is the incarnation, where God takes on human flesh and lived among us. It's clear from scripture that Jesus is as much God in nature as is the Father (such as Philippians 2:5-11, which is Paul repeating one of the earliest creeds of the church). There are religions that call themselves Christian, such as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness, but they believe in a very different Jesus--one who was not God.

Jesus is my Redeemer, my Savior, my bridge to God. He is the Way to my personal salvation and I thank Him every day for the price He paid for my soul's salvation. Hallelujah!

For in Christ there is all of God in a human body; so you have everything when you have Christ, and you are filled with God through your union with Christ. Colossians 2:9-10 May your roots go down deep into the soil of God's marvelous love; and may you be able to feel and understand, as all God's children should, how long, how wide, how deep, and how high his love really is; and to experience this love for yourselves, though it is so great that you will never see the end of it or fully know or understand it. And so at last you will be filled up with God himself. Now glory be to God who by his mighty power at work within us is able to do far more than we would ever dare to ask or even dream of-infintely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, or hopes. May he be given glory forever and ever through endless ages because of his master plan of salvation for the church through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 3:18-21 There are no words of how much I Love Him. I can't wait to see him and fall into his arms, home at last! I want to spend the first thousand years with him in his beautiful garden.

Jesus was a long-haired, left-wing, non-english speaking, dress-wearing, liberal hippie from the Middle East. Someone who your average right-wing clean-cut, english-speaking convervative American wouldn't like very much.

Jerry, you don't owe anyone an apology. Your Godly, thoughtful insights are welcome on this site, regardless to whom you are responding. Blessings to you.

Consider this, folks. I was a deep believer since I was 16 (I'm now 41). Regular churchgoer, active in the church, married to a great Christian lady, two Christian sons. I've been having my doubts and questions for a couple of years, but tried to keep it all inside.

I've been a regular reader of these evoltions and comments. At first JCO and Erik kinda aggrevated me, then I got amused at the give-and-take they created. BUt, to make a long story short, Erik made a comment one day that started me on the path of thinking through an aspect of my beliefs. Long story short, I came to the belief that God as described in most organized religion just can't be for real. (I'm not going to go into detail on this because I have no desire to debate the issue and I certinly don't want to influence anyone else.

I've lost my faith and I'm saddened by this. I'm shared this event with no one else, my wife and kids don't have a clue. I still go to church because I love the people and the atmosphere, besides I want to keep my familyin the faith. But I have lost something tht was so core to my being.

I'm not blaming anyone else, mind you. I am fully responsible for decisions I have made. But I think you folks should know there is another side to this discussion about keeping JCO and Erik around. True, they may someday become believers, but how many people will they recruit in the meantime. I'm not talking about people like me, I doubt many people of my faith have fallen because of these pages. But what about the curious people who come to this sight for some answers? many days they see more text from JCO than they do Bryan Wright.

Just wanted to add this perspective. My "realization" is a tragedy for me and I'd hate to see others hve to lose it too. It's just odd to me that RFTH for some reason thinks it has to sponsor "equaltime" for the other side.

Sam,

I'm praying for you. I truly believe that if you have given your heart to Jesus, that he will not let you go. It may feel like you've walked away now, but he will draw you back if you were a true believer.

All have questions from time to time, but there are good answers and good reasons to have faith. Plus, doubt is not something exclusive to Christians. There is enough evidence for God that atheists have their doubts, too. My question to you is, where would you go from here? I hope you will miss Jesus as much as I would. I'm glad you're still in church. Look to your wife and those who follow Him. Compare their lives to what you see in the world. I hope you will see that there is little meaning without God.

"Long story short, I came to the belief that God as described in most organized religion just can't be for real."

Congratulations Sam! I think that most people come to this conclusion when they mind to really think about it for more than 5 min.

But don't feel like something is lost, nothing is lost. Your life can be meaningful in ways you have not yet realized when you aren't constricted by the shackles that unreasonable and irrational faith has on you.

I'd love to know what Erik said, but you stated that this is something that you do not wish to discuss, which I will respect.

It's an interesting post from Sam. It sounds very sincere, and may well be, but I don't understand the logic. I mean, I understand and sympathize with anyone who is saddened by their loss of faith. I went through something similar and it isn't easy, like someone telling your spouse is unfaithful.

However, his post gets a little strange at the end. Forgive me for being a skeptic but if what I've said is reasonable, then why would you want to suppress it? He uses language like "how many will they recruit in the meantime?" (recruit for what, Satan's army??) which sounds to me like the complaints I have heard here before when people were imploring RFTH to ban free speech.

And then he says (hopefully) that we someday become believers(!). I'm not saying it's made up, just strikes me as a bit odd.

I like to think I would be grateful to someone who told me the truth, even if that truth were very painful.

Sam, I would like to know what it was that bothered you so much. you can email me privately if you like. RFTH has my email.

thanks.

Sam, you have an excellent point and has been one of the main reasons that at times I have engaged with those two. It has very much been my concern for those on the fence, so to speak that either haven't made any commitment to Christ or not a very firm commitment. Of course they'll disagree, but if you really go over their comments many, not all, are exaggerated and if you check into their facts, which I often do you can see this for yourself. After all has there been one single subject talked about that they didn't know "everything" there was to know about it supposedly. They know "every" single scientific fact there is to know, don't they? Do you remember at any time they couldn't rattle off some "exact" numbers? Do you really believe they know "everything" they claim to know? Anyway, please take a breather and just remember satan knows your weaknesses and he is totally using these two people. Please don't take everything they say at face value. Believe me if they were so positive of their beliefs they would not be bothering with us at all. They would be happy to live and let live. Remember we as christians share our faith for our concern of others and not for ourselves. They are not concerned for us, but only want more people in the same boat. The more people that believe as they do makes them feel their beliefs to be confirmed. Much of what they bring up are on many atheist sights on the internet where there are suggestions on how to engage with christians and their beliefs. I have begun to step back though and not bother to get into discusssions with them because it's the same old stuff and is not productive and is disturbing to some. Have you noticed they throw out their "positive" and always "perfect" knowledge of science and any other subject being discussed. Have they ever been not been sure about "anything" at all? Anyway, please just take a breath and relax and start immersing yourself in the bible instead of their rhetoric. Remember that all these things that are occuring in the world now are predicted in the bible including MANY falling away from the faith. You will have to make a true decision at one point which side you are truly on and stand firmly with it because in the end times those of the faith will have to be willing to be persecuted and not just necessarily verbally. We may have to be willing to die for our faith. This is already happening in other countries more than most realize. We will not be able to be wishy washy about it. Christ will expect us to stand firmly for him. I will pray for you and hope that the seed of the word will be planted on the fertile ground of your heart and not swallowed up by the snares of this world. Now, having said all that- JCO and Erik I'm sure you will protest and disagree loudly with what I have said and- oh well is all I have to say about it and yes as you will probably sarcastically comment- I am moving on, but still praying for you.

Sam,
I appreciate your candid comments and sharing your heart. When you were expounding upon being a deep believer you said, regular churchgoer, active in the church, married to a great Christian lady, and two Christian sons. You didn't say, Jesus is your Savior, a student of the Word, or other comments that would point to your relationship with Christ. I am not trying to analyze you, but just make a point about perspective. When our focus is on the Lord and His grace and control in our lives we have that peace and joy. Everyone has doubts at times and that is why we are admonished in Ephesians 6 above all taking the shield of faith to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And remember, faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The Bible is your lifeline. Start reading again in the book of John and pray that God will restore unto the joy of your salvation.

Sam, this is definitely not a tragedy, and you shouldn’t view it this way. Rejoice in the fact that you are now smart enough, wise enough, and reasonable enough to see the world as it really is. You don't need to invent nonsensical claptrap in your head to be happy, and that’s a good thing!

I derive my happiness from learning all I can, which now you can do as well, free of what religion can do to your mind.

Anecdotal story. My wife's friend (a doctor) at work had two close friends growing up, both who were Christians of the highest order and both of whom who went onto study biology at Harvard. At around the time that both were in their Ph.D. programs, one of the friends after studying biology her whole life, came to the conclusion that if what she was learning was all true, religion could not be, and she left her faith and became an atheist. The other friend? Well, she couldn’t reconcile the two, and decided to drop completely out of the biology post-doctoral program at Harvard University. What a shame that she had to give up her career because it did not jive with ancient legends and myths.

I had a friend that had been an atheist that won the biology award at our school. A short time after they became a christian. They are now an onocologist, saving lives and helping save souls :-)

It's disheartening that anyone be prompted to lose their faith over the rediculous stuff that some commenters post here. The arguments are so transparent, illogical, and repeative. They are also very insincere.
What a shame.

When the Christian dies, he expects (and will) to come immediately into the presence of Lord Jesus to receive the blessings of his promise.

When the atheist dies he expects..........nothing. It is this "freedom" from the expectation of any judgement of one's life that is most attractive to the atheist. The reasons for this are obvious.

Grant- atheists don't need to be promised a reward in order to behave ourselves. We are good for goodness sake.

Example: in America, the "Christian nation," murder rate is THREE TIMES higher than atheist Sweden. And statistics are similar for other crimes and social pathology. Why do you suppose it is that Christians behave so badly, despite their fear of judgment, and atheists behave so well?

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-121066.0.html

It is such a tragedy when someone loses their faith and then people rejoice in it. Sam if you really search your heart and concider what has taken place in your life I believe you will come to the realization that there is a God who has watched over you and have even at times guided and protected you. Don't listen to the stupid advice and scientific data that man has compiled and say has no error when it comes to disproving God. Atheist's claim there is no God yet they can't prove their belief fully, they only spout some mumbo-jumbo and expect everyone else to agree with them. They don't mind telling us how ignorant we are yet they don't want us to say the same thing about them. Well fine, I still say there is a God and he will judge the whole world and His judgement will be just. I am glad to say that I don't have to prove His existence, he has already done that in many ways, nature, humans, even the animal kingdom shows there is a God. How else can we reproduce without having the right ability and componants to do so. The big bang didn't create beings with this ability. I say again true science proves there is a God.
Again Sam do some soul searching and I believe you will regain your faith. God Bless you.

But you do. I get that, and that’s great. However, I might be 'smarter' than a chicken, but I don't feel that because I am a little higher up the evolutionary scale, that there is some guy in the sky watching out for me, especially when this particular guy was created in our image in the first place.

Thus, I know I have complete "freedom from the expectation of any judgement" in any afterlife. I spend zero percent of my time worrying about this. Why would I think that your particular god will judge me when I die vs. Allah, Zeus, Brahman, or anyone else? Christianity has never provided a satisfactory answer to this question.

And I have heard the rebuttal many times, "Jesus Christ is the ONLY deity you can have a personal relationship with, no other religion offers this. And He also said that I am the ‘truth and the light’, so you had better listen to this particular prophet, and none of the others." But that's like saying, "I know that a Sony TV is the best TV, because Sony tells me that it is.

It’s as basic as that.

Sorry, first paragraph was left off the first time!

Yes Grant, when I die, I expect nothing. I'll get the same thing a chicken gets when he dies, for science tells us, we are actually long lost cousins with that chicken, and everything else on Earth. As a member of the species homo sapien, I don't feel I'm in any "privileged" position, at least when it comes with access to deities, the after-life, and the supernatural.

But you do. I get that, and that’s great. However, I might be 'smarter' than a chicken, but I don't feel that because I am a little higher up the evolutionary scale, that there is some guy in the sky watching out for me, especially when this particular guy was created in our image in the first place.

Thus, I know I have complete "freedom from the expectation of any judgement" in any afterlife. I spend zero percent of my time worrying about this. Why would I think that your particular god will judge me when I die vs. Allah, Zeus, Brahman, or anyone else? Christianity has never provided a satisfactory answer to this question.

And I have heard the rebuttal many times, "Jesus Christ is the ONLY deity you can have a personal relationship with, no other religion offers this. And He also said that I am the ‘truth and the light’, so you had better listen to this particular prophet, and none of the others." But that's like saying, "I know that a Sony TV is the best TV, because Sony tells me that it is.

It’s as basic as that.

Thank you, RFTH, for this devotion which prompted me to reflect upon, "Who is Jesus to you?" It is an imprtant question, the most important question, as you indicate, that could be asked. He is the Son of the living God, indeed, and He is my personal Savior. There is no one else throughout time who can be what He is to my life. No one can separate me from His love for me. This is a unique, personal relationship He has with me and no words spoken by another person can dissolve the scope of His caring for me. Others who post here know of this type of love but some who come to this site have no understanding of it. I feel RFTH has steered people to the point where they can receive the saving knowledge of Jesus. If people choose to not want to grab onto the hand of Jesus and follow Him where He goes then that is their choice. I feel some kind of sadness over this but not so much that it would rob me of the joy of knowing Jesus as my Savior. Jesus will not lose the ones the Father has given to Him as the sheep of His pasture. He is the Good Shepherd and though the world may crumble His words and His love endures forever. Who could want for more?

I have been a scientist most of my life. When I took anatomy in college I was fascinated by the human body and how it all fit together. I saw all of the nerves, bones, muscles, etc and even the brain and al the organs. At that time I thought when I died I just ceased to be so I wanted to enjoy my life. When I met the living Savior, my whole perspective changed and everything I had studied in biology, physiology, zoology, chemistry, physics, anatomy, bacteriology, sociology, psychology, and everything else came together like a puzzle and gave me a perspective of eipignosis or understanding the reason for everything I had studied. I definitely would have been posting comments like JCO and Erik had the Lord not opened my eyes and I have grown deeper and deeper in my relationship with the Lord and my understanding of His creation. My point is that the truth of God's Word validates the world. It's all a matter of perspective. Formerly mine was from my point of view shaped by those around me, what I read, and my experiences. Now it is through the discernment given to me by my Lord and I give Him the glory instead of me and my intellect. I am honored to be in the company of believers more than all of the "great minds" of the Ivy League universities among whom I existed.

How anyone can read as much bible as Eric seems to have, and not get the intended message is amazing to me. God must hav e really closed your heart and mind. I will pray that it is his will that it open once again and that you find and the joy, peace and assurance that is waiting for you. JCO; you will require a miralcle of a higher orded.

Erik,it's pretty obvious which side behaves themselves on this site. I don't know of too many born again christians going around murdering people so whatever statistics etc. you quote is misleading- as usual.

LOL at Becky

JCO, thanks for proving my first point :-)

Sam is clearly a fake, not sure why anyone would waste their time. Erik and JCO's
"tolerance" applies to anything but the Christian faith. Why would anyone care about their clearly prejudicial, often contradictory remarks is beyond me. To me they are solely a by-product, a side-step so to speak.

But then again I am still searching and looking to be more like Jesus.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Sam post a few times before so I really don't think he's fake. I've been concerned for quite a while for young christians or those that haven't made a committment to Christ yet. We just need to pray for protection and coverage for them through the Holy Spirit. God bless

Paula, why is Sam a fake? He seems like a nice, sincere guy to me.

There seem to be a lot of statements lately describing some of my comments and Erik's comments as "irrational", "illogical", "contradictory", etc. I'd love to see an example of a statement that either of us have made that is illogical.

Gail, if you'd rather have hobnob with dummies vs. Ivy League Ph.D.'s, that's your business.

Hmmm...now that's the pot calling the kettle black. I know I've never called you any of those things, but I certainly know you've used them in describing us.

All right, folks. As often is the case, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Thanks and blessings to you all.