Once again I see the sovereign hand of the Lord. I was praying that very Scripture this morning. It's always nice to have confirmation and elaboration of what God is trying to convey.

I think this is a good story but I'd like it to go even further. Just for a moment put yourself in the position of one of the rescuers who has come for the trapped miners. Just as in the devotion, one of them doesn't want to leave. He is deluded into thinking he can find his own way out. What would you do? Why?

I used to be a "card carrying" Armenian. I believed in the idea of 99.9% Grace and .01% my decision to accept Jesus as my Savior. I now believe what Paul said. It is by Faith ALONE and that by Grace ALONE, not by works, so that none may boast.

I am still a member of a church where the official view is that of Free Will. That we must make the first step. I am totally comfortable with my brothers and sisterd belief in that, but for me..I know that God chose me before the beginning of time.

Ask me to explain that and I really can't. Argue it; I really don't feel the need. It certainly wasn't because of any merit on my part. It's just another of those beautiful mysteries of the Ways of God.

Erik, I can't say exactly what I'd do, but the most important thing is that I would provide a way out. If the miner decided not to come, then I might ask the others to tell him that I got them out. Perhaps I'd go in after him even though I knew I'd lose my life rescuing him. Now a question for you. If one of the other miners accepts the rescuer's help and gets out, should he tell the rebel miner, or should he just remain silent and let the otehr miner die?

Eric, that is a good question. In a lot of lifes situations we do think we can do everything on our own without anyones help. Even I am guilty of that, (can you believe I'm brave enough to admit it in print) but it doesn't take me long to figure out that I can do nothing in myself.I have gotten into a lot of trouble in my life time because I felt that I didn't need the help of other people, let alone Gods help. After I gave in and let someone help me, I understood that help is a great thing to have, but to need help and not have it available that is a very disturbing situation. There have been times that I told God that I didn't need him to help me with a little problem, but before I was finished with whatever I was doing it had grown into a very large problem and I needed God in a big kind of way. If these men had said they didn't the help of the rescurers they would have been said to have been irresponsible, and stupid, this is about the same way that believers feel about a person who won't trust Christ. God bless and have a good day

Rom. 10:13- "EVERYONE who calls on the Name of the Lord WILL BE SAVED."

OK just to sum up the answers to my question above:

John says he doesn't know what he would do.

Jerry says it's a good question but doesn't answer it.

Christ Follower says some bible verse.

No offense guys but I hope I'm not trapped in a mine with you all any time soon.

How about Austin, RickY and Janice? What say you?

Erik, I have to admit you are hilarious.
Good summation. This is also related to witnessing. We plant the seed and let go and let God. Have a great day!

Erik,

"No offense guys but I hope I'm not trapped in a mine with you all any time soon."

Are you assuming that we want to be trapped in a mine with you?

By the way, just to sum your answer to my previous question:

Erik, I did not post at first because I did not thoroughly understand your question. But since you wanted to hear what I think I gave it some more thought. It did not make sense to me that a rescuer would choose not to come out of the mine. But if they did then I would think something was wrong with their thinking. I would not physically have the ability or skill to help the rescuer be rescued I would pray to God to equip the person of His choosing to be able to get the person out. I would probably assume that there was an injury or lack of oxygen to the brain which caused the rescuer to have faulty thinking. Anyway, we are told to pray about everything and this would certainly be a good thing to do. I know you do not believe in prayer so you will discount my answer but I am trying to be nice to you and answer sincerely.

Eric, Sometimes you are very hard to figure out. I guess I didn't answer your question directly but even though I was nice enough to compliment you, you still answered very sarcastically. Evediently you didn't read my answer and see that I took a different approach in answering you. There are many different ways to answer a person if they are in a mine and they choose not to follow the advice of another person who is trying to help them. The helper would have to weigh the matter to see how they would react. Most likely if the person decided not to follow the advice of the other person they probably have already started out on their own. This happens a lot of the time. If the person was standing in front of me and they told me that they would not follow me back to safety after I had explained to them how to get back then I would probably subdue them with what ever means I had to do it with. We had to rescue a person who was about to drown because they had panicked many years ago and when we swam out to the person they began to fight and try to climb up on top of the other person and myself, in this matter it was very simple, they was not going to listen to reason so what I did was I hit them in their face as hard as I could and when they almost passed out we was able to turn them over and get them to safety. I know you will probably have something negative to say, but the truth of the matter was we got them out and ourselves so the job was done and everyone was okay. Eric, to all of us believers you have been in a mine and we all have tried to help get you out into the light but you have been just like the person in your story, you have rejected our help. What more would you like for us to do to get you out of the mine you are in? We want an answer from you, will you let us lead you out or are you going to keep rejecting our help?

Yes, Jerry, I agree with you. I would do the same. I would not have let the person drown/die in a mine even though they had rejected my help. How then is it that God, who is supposed to love us, will let us drown if we are foolish enough to reject him? It sounds like you are a much better person than this God you all talk about so much.

Once again, Erik has been successful at suckering us into a sarcastic battle of the faith. Using his traditional pattern of first posting a legitimate question or comment, he has been able to draw us in to an elementary school discussion for the purpose of Erik being able to piece together some psuedo-logic and declare, "Aha! There is no god! I win!"

All this is a fun adolecent exercise for him, but does seem to destroy the real purpose of this forum.

Come on folks. Unless his escapades are your idea of a good use of your time, just ignore his little game.

tgw- I'm sorry if my comments make you uncomfortable. I respect people like Jerry for giving an honest answer to an honest question. If you think my arguments are flawed then please expose my errors. Otherwise I'll thank you not to attack me personally.

"I would not have let the person drown/die in a mine even though they had rejected my help."

Of course, you ignore all of the other things the rescuer will do to offer the miner a way of escape, and warn him of the consequences if he refuses to be rescued. Apparently, you don't like God because he will allow the miner to choose who he wants to follow.

Let's consider if God was more like you. His true intentions would not be one of love, but one of deceit. Instead of letting us know his plan, he would trick us into something that he could take out of context and use against us. Then he could "zap" us and fulfill his true plan. Actually, that sounds like my view of Satan instead of God. Maybe you will get the god you want after all.

John- God is supposed to be like a loving father. I wouldn't think much of a loving father who let his children choose to die in a mine or drown in a lake. Can you imagine a father standing by the edge of a mine saying, "I'm not going to help you unless you ask me"?

Erik, your comment indicates that you are only thinking of physical life. I had in the past a friend who chose to commit suicide. I was concerned that she would be in hell for taking her own life but a wise Christian told me that God looks at the whole life and not just at the moment when one decision is made. Your comments show that you do not have an eternal perspective. It is sad when tragedies happen physically to people yet it is sadder still for us to consider a life eternally separated from God.

Last comment. Erik, to me he is a loving father. The problem is that he is not YOUR father. Let's start fresh with a new devotional, "Do You Need a Shepherd?"

Janice: I am think ONLY eternally. The story is just a metaphor. Dying in a mine is nothing compared to eternal torture.

John: I would hope my father would love me enough to save me even if I rejected him. I guess I'm just crazy that way.

Erik, your comment to John seems to say you are putting conditions on God, telling Him how it must be according to Erik's rules rather than letting God be Who He is. God, the Father, Abba, has shown His loving care for you through His provision of how Jesus died for you while you were a sinner so the blood of Jesus would cover your sins so you could have eternal life in the presence of God. You want God to love you even though you totally reject His Son Jesus. He does love you and He still waits for you to accept His gift of salvation through believing in His Son Jesus. But there will be a time when it is too late for you to go their way. You are still wanting to call all the shots, to be in control of God, or in other words to be God. He is not what you would make of Him. You are His creation, made in His image. He wants you to submit to His authority and walk humbly with Him. He loves you enough to give you the choice to walk with Him, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit into heaven or you can enter into the alternative without Him for eternal life. I suppose you would find more love in your heart for a god who would give us no choice but to love him and obey his every command so we would all go to heaven? Well, that isn't our God, for He respects us more than that. He gives us plenty of clues in the Bible as to what He believes is best for us and He gives us plenty of opportunities to get things right. I hope and pray you will soon get on board with the God of the Bible. Seek with all your heart. Knock and the door will be opened for you. If you were without a mind to be able to do these things then it would be all on Him to save you all by Himself. But you have been blessed with a good mind so He expects you to use it to seek Him out and to quit rejecting the provision He has made for you. God bless you on this rainy day in Georgia.

Janice- what would you do? Would you let your son or daughter perish if they rejected you?

Erik, If a son or daughter of mine chose to reject me it would mean they would put me out of their life. I would no longer have knowledge of what they were doing, they would not be involving me in their activities and they would in no way be acting on the basis of my influence or direction. In other words, their path of life would in no way intersect with mine. I would not be able to save them from destruction if they chose to go on a self destructive path. That does not mean love would be absent on my part and sadness at the thought of what could have been. But when children grow up and become adults they can go the way of their own choosing. God does let us all choose our path and He is always there waiting for us to get back on the path that leads to realizing His love in our lives that was always there even when we distanced ourselves from it. When will you turn around, look at your loving Father God and take a step in His direction so He can run to gather you up in His loving embrace and show you His saving grace? Why are you so reluctant to do things His way? He has honored you by letting you reach adulthood and the point of being responsible for your own actions. He knows you have it in you to live up to being made in His image. Why not make this day be the one to bring rejoicing to your Father God and take away His sadness over your rejection?

People, God gave mankind the ability to have free will. It does sadden him when we as humans choose not to follow him, but that is our choice. He wants to bless all people but we have to follow him. When we choose to be atheists we tell him we don't believe in him and therefore we do not belong to him, so he is not liable when we get ourselves into trouble. If we will be honest even nonbelievers can see times in their lives when someone took care of them and they don't know who or what it was. God allways make a way of escape but we have to choose it, for it to work. God bless everyone.